Proxy Votes

Lord Greaves: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What action they intend to take to deal with the widespread abuse of proxy voting in elections.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, we recently issued a circular to all electoral registration officers, returning officers and acting returning officers reminding them of some of the steps that can be taken to ensure the integrity of the proxy vote procedure. Regulations to be made under the Representation of the People Act 2000 will require electoral administrators to confirm to each elector who has appointed a proxy the name of that proxy and the duration of the appointment.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, the circular that was issued was certainly welcome and may have helped to tighten up the system a little this year. But is it not the case that the amount of electoral abuse--the amount of vote stealing--that is going on is on the increase? This applies to bogus applications for proxy votes; it applies to fiddling postal votes; and it appears to apply to an increasing amount of impersonation that is taking over quite a widespread area, including Bradford, Burnley and Pendle, and in Birmingham. Therefore, as far as concerns proxy votes, would it not be a good idea to revert to the previous system in which proxy vote applications were approved only if the elector was not going to be present within the United Kingdom on polling day?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am aware that there are a number of outstanding cases about which concern has been expressed and in respect of which police investigations have been undertaken--for example, in Pendle, Burnley and Hackney, to name but a few. However, I am not aware that there is necessarily an increase in fraud or in abuse; indeed, statistics do not indicate that one way or the other. However, I share the noble Lord's concern that vote stealing and fiddling is entirely reprehensible. All parties should share in a common desire to reveal those abuses and prosecute them wherever possible. I take the noble Lord's point. That is why I gave a certain undertaking when we debated the Representation of the People Bill. We shall issue a circular later in the year that will, I believe, introduce a procedure that should, in large measure, prevent vote stealing of the sort described by the noble Lord.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, will the noble Lord accede to the suggestion that proxy votes should be accorded only to those who are without the United Kingdom? I declare an interest, although it is not a registerable one. My wife is blind, and I have a proxy vote for her.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, it is for precisely those reasons that proxy votes exist. When the recent working party on electoral procedures met, it was not convinced that arrangements should be further liberalised. The working party understood and fully acknowledged the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, and others, in this Chamber. I believe that the procedures we have put in place should begin to tackle any of those outstanding abuses. However, I take the point that proxy votes should be used as a last resort only, especially as we are now making it much easier for people to obtain postal votes on demand.

Lord Laird: My Lords, is the Minister prepared to accept that there are some people in Northern Ireland with particular expertise in voting on behalf of other people? Would the noble Lord be prepared to make Northern Ireland a special case and consider the concept of registering on a list the date of birth of the voter which then has to be related back by the person concerned at the time of voting? Would it also be possible to allow the presiding officer to challenge the possible proxy voter, instead of requiring a party member to do so? Further, could such measures be implemented in time for the next general election?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I know that interesting things happen in elections in Northern Ireland. But the procedures that will be put in place should enable returning officers, acting returning officers, and so on, to be more challenging in their approach to proxy voters where they think that there may be fraud or abuse. I understand that returning officers welcomed the circular that was issued before the recent local elections and that they made widespread use of it. We must pursue those aims. There is great merit in enabling people to use proxy votes in the very circumstances where it is extremely difficult for them to get the opportunity to exercise their right to vote.

Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, while opportunities for abuse of the system should be eliminated, does not the Minister agree that voting by proxy is important for members of the Armed Forces and for others in occupations that take them abroad or require them to move at very short notice? Does the noble Lord also agree that early registration--that is, well before an election--is advisable?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I entirely agree with the latter observation of the noble Lord. I share his commitment to the value of the proxy vote for people who are in business or for those who are serving in the Armed Forces, and so on. That is why the system has been retained. However, like the noble Lord, I am concerned that we should do all that we can to minimise abuse of the proxy voting system.

Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, as my noble friend is concerned that people who are legitimately working abroad should be able to have a proxy vote, will he take steps to review legislation for which he is responsible in this House that might remove such a right to vote from people who are currently working in European Union institutions and who might well be doing so for a period exceeding 10 years?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Lord has made. In the past he has made that point publicly and privately. We are open to suggestions and compromise on that issue. The noble Lord is actively pursuing such a compromise, on which I congratulate him.

Earl Russell: My Lords, does the Minister agree that if abuse were to remain constant while turn-out declines, the likelihood that abuse will alter the result of an election must increase?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I can only say "yes".

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, does the Minister recall that I live in the constituency of Glasgow Govan? Does he share my doubts that a communication informing people that it is illegal to misuse proxy or postal voting will not do much to change the situation because they already know that it is illegal and that is why they are misusing these votes in an underhand way? Does not the Minister think that firmer steps will need to be taken to prevent the abuse of proxy and postal voting? I refer to the experiment to extend postal and proxy voting to everyone. Is there evidence that this abuse has increased in those places where the experiment was conducted last May?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord asks a number of questions. I remind the noble Lord that we are not extending proxy voting. We are trying to extend and provide a wider facility for postal voting. That has been broadly welcomed. I think that the noble Lord accepts that there has been increased turn-out in those areas where it has been made easier for people to obtain a postal vote or where there has been universal postal voting. I believe that the letter in regard to the regulations that we shall introduce later in the year will greatly assist people. Many of the allegations with regard to proxy voting concern those cases where people have turned up at the polling station expecting to exercise a proxy vote on someone's behalf but have discovered that their vote has been "stolen". I know that the noble Lord agrees that those are reprehensible circumstances. To put proxy voters, or those who will use a proxy vote, on notice puts in place a careful check.

Cricket in Schools

Baroness Massey of Darwen: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What plans they have to promote cricket in English schools.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I am pleased to report that participation in cricket in our schools is increasing. Sport England announced that in the past five years cricket was the only game to have achieved this. The English Cricket Board has indicated that over the past year regular participation in cricket in secondary schools increased by 10 per cent to about 84 per cent of schools, and in primary schools there was an increase in participation of 7 per cent to around 70 per cent of schools. Furthermore--this is important--the ECB showed that girls' participation had increased by 26 per cent. The ECB is launching a school education programme in September.

Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his knowledgeable reply. The English Cricket Board report is positive and encouraging. Does the Minister agree that the West Indies and England team deserve congratulations on their spectacular performance last week? However, my real concern is about cricket in inner cities. Does the Minister think that young people in inner city schools have their cricketing potential sufficiently exploited? Do many of them later play for their county or their country?

Lord Bach: My Lords, not only does the English side and its brave West Indian opponents deserve congratulations, but so does my noble friend on her sense of timing in tabling this Question today. I believe that most of us in the House who were not lucky enough to be present at Lord's were either glued to our television or radio sets to follow a Test Match, the pure thrill and excitement of which must have achieved a huge amount of progress for cricket at all levels in this country. As regards the situation in the inner cities, the Spaces for Sport and Arts Programme is aimed at inner cities and the impoverished areas of our country. It seeks to improve sports and arts facilities in primary schools in deprived areas for use by children within and beyond school hours and by the community outside school hours. Childcare will be provided. Some £75 million worth of new money from the capital modernisation fund and £75 million from the lottery have been allocated to pay for it.
	As regards older children, the noble Baroness may be aware that the Lords Taverners run an inner cities tournament for children who do not normally have a chance to participate in higher level cricket competitions. This splendid tournament has been running for some years and involves 16 cities. There are strict criteria to ensure that elite schoolchildren are not invited to participate. Individuals must not have played in a county board side and must be under the age of 16 the previous September. The Lords Taverners are much to be congratulated on their scheme. Such schemes are very much to be encouraged but there is still much to be done.

Baroness Young: My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has said on this subject. Is he satisfied that the strong feeling that ran through the educational system against competitive sport of any kind is a thing of the past?

Lord Bach: My Lords, I am always loath to take issue with the noble Baroness. However, I do not accept that the anti-competitive spirit, as she calls it, ran through all our educational establishments. The Government believe that competition in sport and in schools is an excellent thing for the individual and for the community.

Lord St John of Bletso: My Lords, while the promotion of kwik cricket, and now inter cricket, has done an enormous amount to promote the game among young boys and girls, is it not the case that the lack of PE teachers who can teach cricket and the lack of time devoted to PE is curbing substantially the promotion of cricket in primary schools? How many schools have applied for sports college status, such as the school in Coventry which is now a cricket team school of sporting excellence? This has done an enormous amount to encourage children who can play sport at a high level.

Lord Bach: My Lords, to answer the noble Lord's last question first, 67 specialist sport schools will be up and running by September of this year. The aim is to have 110 by 2003. So far as concerns his other questions, there are no shortages at all of PE specialists training to become teachers in secondary schools. However, so far as concerns primary school teachers, there have been some difficulties and we are working extremely hard to ensure that there are PE specialists in primary schools. It is worth noting that many more primary schools now involve themselves in cricket--largely because of kwik cricket--than was the case a few years ago.

Lord Addington: My Lords, would it not be useful if relevant sport qualifications were taken into account on teachers' applications for performance related pay if they were prepared to use their qualifications for the improvement of schools as a whole? If not, can the Minister explain how the Government intend to repair the damage that has been done to our traditional school base of teachers helping after hours, which has been driven out by the amount of time and red tape involved?

Lord Bach: My Lords, the noble Lord's question is very interesting. I should like to go away and consider the matter and let him know.

Lord MacLaurin of Knebworth: My Lords, I thank the House for congratulating the England team on its fine win on Saturday. I am sure the team will be pleased to receive your Lordships' congratulations. Is the Minister aware that, in comparison with successful sporting nations such as France and Germany--which spend more than £5 and £3 per head of population on sport respectively--sadly, the United Kingdom lags far behind, spending only 88p. Do the Government realise that in the case of cricket, which is not a rich sport, any modest increase in public expenditure would have a tremendously positive impact out of all proportion to the money spent?

Lord Bach: My Lords, before I answer the noble Lord, perhaps I may congratulate him and his board on a superb cricket report of the past year and on the undoubted progress that is being made. In that report, the ECB talks favourably of relations with the Government, with Ministers and with schools. Of course we wish to put much more into sport than we do at present. The noble Lord will know better than most that in February this year Sport England confirmed an Exchequer grant of just short of £1 million over the next four years, which is in addition to the much larger sum of £7 million a year that the ECB, under his leadership, and the counties spend between them on the development of cricket.

Zimbabwe: Elections

Lord Steel of Aikwood: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What is their assessment of the conditions under which electoral observers worked in Zimbabwe.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the observers were generally warmly welcomed wherever they went in Zimbabwe. They had wide-ranging contacts with the political parties, the local authorities, civil society groups and the Zimbabwe Government. We agree with the assessment made by Pierre Schori, the head of the EU observer mission, that a deliberate attempt was made by the authorities to reduce the effectiveness of both the international observers and the domestic monitors through a series of administrative obstructions. The observers were, however, able to travel freely around the country and did a very good job in reporting on the electoral process in Zimbabwe. Their final reports will be placed in the Library of the House when they are available.

Lord Steel of Aikwood: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Does she agree that the fact that polling day itself was relatively well conducted after the mayhem leading up to it is a tribute to the presence of the international observers, and underscores their importance? As the final reports of both the Commonwealth mission and the EU mission are due to be published this week and clearly will contain reference to some of the matters that the Minister has just expressed to the House, will she undertake to ensure that any future international collaboration with Zimbabwe on the economic front will be predicated on a return to the rule of law and, in particular, observance by its government of decisions of the courts?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I join the noble Lord in the tribute that he rightly paid to the observers. They made a significant difference and we should all be grateful to them for that. I can reassure the noble Lord that the Government continue to feel passionately about the issue of the maintenance of the rule of law. We share with our partners the need to keep that clearly in mind in terms of assessing the development of Zimbabwe and how matters should proceed from now on.

Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the outcome of the elections in Zimbabwe is a tribute also to the courage of the ordinary voters of that country, many of whom defied intimidation and threats in order to cast their votes in a way which was a tribute to democracy? In view of the extreme importance of the presidential elections in two years' time, will it be possible to work out in advance that electoral monitors will be welcomed and will be allowed to view the election throughout the whole of the country in a way that was not wholly achieved on this occasion, as my noble friend said?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I join wholeheartedly in the tribute that the noble Baroness paid to the people of Zimbabwe. They demonstrated enormous courage in voting in the numbers that they did. It is also a tribute to the international community which gave them the courage to do so; it supported them and enabled them to feel that the world was watching and did not turn away. Electoral monitors obviously played an enormous part. We must look very carefully at what happens in the next two years. If matters do not improve--we passionately hope that they will--everything that the noble Baroness said must be looked at very thoroughly. We shall consider whether the use of monitors should be advocated and when they should go in, but we must wait to see how matters develop.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the nightmare in Zimbabwe is far from over? The situation there--far from being one where we can wait and see--has been described by responsible commentators as "explosive". It is beginning to poison the whole of southern Africa, with investment drying up and a major crisis emerging. Can the noble Baroness reassure the House that everything possible is being done to sew together a responsible alliance of African leaders, which can bring pressure on Mugabe to come to his senses--and, indeed, to hasten his departure--so that the courageous MDC, which did very well in the elections, can have a chance to pursue democracy in Zimbabwe before it collapses completely?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, let me say straightaway that the noble Lord is right: the challenges which lie ahead for Zimbabwe are by no means over. However, we need to respect the voice of the people of Zimbabwe--in the end, it is they who must choose who will lead them--and whether Mr Mugabe goes or stays will depend very much on his behaviour and how it is received by the people of that country. We continue to talk with our African partners about the acute situation in Zimbabwe. We should draw some comfort from what the African leaders are doing and from the conversations they are having. We welcome the initiative started by Mr Mbeki in South Africa. The government there have appointed a team of Ministers to work with their Zimbabwean counterparts in pursuit of economic recovery and stability in the region. Our African partners take this issue very seriously--and rightly so.

Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: My Lords, would the Minister care to comment on the report in the newspapers that the EU Commission, in reporting the elections, felt that the Commonwealth had been rather inadequate in its response to the abuse which occurred?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I have not seen that report. However, we were warmed by the amount of support we received across the board for those initiatives and in connection with the anxieties that we were expressing. There was international agreement in that regard. I should not like to voice a criticism of the efforts made by the Commonwealth as a whole, which were significant.

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, if it was right for the people of Zimbabwe to have their choice of leader accepted, which choice was made in a broadly fiddled election, why was it wrong for the people of Austria not to be allowed their choice of leader in a free and fair election?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, as I have said before from this Dispatch Box, Her Majesty's Government do not choose which leaders are elected or appointed by any given country. Austria chose its leaders; Austria will abide by the consequences of that.

The North East: Regional Policies

Lord Dormand of Easington: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	To what extent they feel that present regional policies are benefiting the northern region.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, the Government are committed to promoting the interests of all the regions, including the North. Establishment of the regional development agencies is already helping to deliver that commitment. In its first year, ONE NorthEast announced projects which will create and safeguard 11,000 jobs with a capital expenditure of some £340 million. Over the next three years, it will invest more than £100 million, levering in an additional £400 million of private, public and European funds.

Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, despite everything that has been done by the Government for the northern region, there is little sign of improvement in the area itself? I have to say to my noble friend that in this Labour heartland there is still considerable concern about the position. For example, is he aware that unemployment in the region remains as high as ever? Can he confirm reports that this month's spending review is to include millions of pounds for other regions? Will the North receive special consideration in view of the fact that all the indicators show that it is the worst hit of all the regions in the country?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am aware that in certain respects the northern region has not fully shared the prosperity of the rest of the country in terms of both employment and standard of living. That is one of the reasons that we are engaged in an active regional policy in support of the RDAs, the local authorities and local business in the northern region. My noble friend would not expect me to anticipate the spending review. It is a matter for the Chancellor, who I am sure is aware of the problems of the North East.

Lord Shore of Stepney: My Lords, is it not self-evident that the beneficial effects of regional policy in the North are being largely wiped out by the adverse effects of the exchange rate? Is it not also self-evident that a major adjustment is needed? The present misalignment may be temporary, but surely the Government recognise that the misalignment is gross and that it is having damaging effects on employment, particularly in manufacturing industry in the North. One has only to consider the latest report about Nissan and its future intentions. Does my noble friend agree that it is really time that the Chancellor addressed himself to this issue and took those actions which are available to him to nudge downwards the exchange rate of the pound?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, for one surreal moment I thought that my noble friend was advocating our joining the euro! It is true--there has been news this morning--that the high dependence of the northern region on manufacturing compared with certain other regions means that the exchange rate has a particularly acute effect. However, we believe that the measures we are taking, both nationally and in relation to the northern region, will attract and retain inward investment and ensure that we make best use of the skills, facilities and the attitude to work which are clearly there in the northern region and which should allow it to have a competitive advantage whatever the exchange rate. The rest of my noble friend's question is a matter for the Chancellor. I do not think that I can easily add to what he has already said on that subject.

Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, following on from the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Shore, is not industry in the North East asking about the Government's present policy on the euro? It is seeking clarification on the issue. Can the noble Lord say to which Ministers industrialists in the North, and indeed elsewhere, should listen regarding policy on the euro?

Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am sorry to have to repeat yet again from the Dispatch Box, as have many of my colleagues, that our policy on the euro remains as it was announced by the Chancellor in the autumn of 1997--we recognise that when the criteria are met there is a case in principle for joining the euro. Decisions on that will await a recommendation from the Chancellor at a later stage. I do not think that the problems of the North East, raised by my noble friend Lord Dormand are resolved by the Opposition, or anyone else, looking at the minutiae of euro policy. This is a structural policy--

Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Whitty: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, claimed that there were textual differences between one Minister and another. The point I am making is that the policy is clear, always has been clear and remains clear. The issue addressed by my noble friend Lord Dormand was the need for structural measures to improve the relative competitiveness of the North East within this economy.

Parliamentary Broadcasting Unit Limited (PARBUL)

Lord Boston of Faversham: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
	Moved, on behalf of the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Morris of Castle Morris be appointed a member of the Parliamentary Broadcasting Unit Limited (PARBUL).--(The Chairman of Committees.)
	On Question, Motion agreed to

Criminal Justice and Court Services Bill

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill now be read a second time.
	The Criminal Justice and Court Services Bill is central to the Government's purpose of reducing crime and improving the protection of the public. It will help to create a criminal justice system that fights crime more effectively through the use of a tough and targeted approach to offending in the community as well as in custody. It illustrates our determination to modernise the criminal justice system from end to end with the establishment of a national probation service for England and Wales and the new children and family court advisory and support service.
	For too long, community sentences have been regarded by offenders, courts and public alike as a soft and ineffective option. That is why the proposals in the Bill to strengthen the enforcement of community sentences are so important. We need to improve public confidence in the value of community sentences as integral parts of an effective response to crime.
	As well as promoting a tough, targeted and effective approach to crime, a number of measures in the Bill focus on improving public protection, particularly for some of the most vulnerable in society such as children. In addition to the introduction of an integrated system for preventing unsuitable people, such as sex offenders, from working with children, the Bill also excludes all sex offenders convicted of offences subject to the Sex Offenders Act 1997 from the home detention curfew programme.
	The Government have rightly focused many of their efforts to date on tackling crime committed by young people. The Bill builds on earlier youth justice reforms. It is absolutely essential that criminal and anti-social behaviour committed by young people is addressed firmly, effectively and, above all, early to divert them from a lifetime of crime. Measures in the Bill to improve parenting orders, the final warning scheme and to compel parents to address their children's truanting are all important parts of a wider youth justice and social exclusion strategy. We will not give up on these young people.
	In developing all of these policies, we have been mindful of the need to balance the rights of those who suffer the effects of crime with those who commit them.
	I should now like to outline some of the main themes and measures of the Bill. The need to improve the effectiveness of the criminal justice system is very much at the heart of this Bill. The establishment of an effective and focused probation service is central to this Government's determination to modernise the criminal justice system and to improve its ability to reduce crime through a range of measures. These include the consistent use of an evidence-based "what works" approach; more effective joint working; the development of local strategies to address local crime reduction priorities; and the efficient use of resources to provide the public with better value for money.
	The Probation Service does an incredibly important job. Its staff take a dedicated and professional approach to this vital work and I trust that this House will join me in paying tribute to them. A prime example of the professionalism that characterises the Probation Service is the way in which the Association of Chief Officers of Probation (ACOP) commissioned its own research into the enforcement of community sentences. This research found that, for cases in March 1999, enforcement rates as a whole were simply not good enough, with the key indicator showing that only 44 per cent of those who broke the terms of their supervision were actually being breached.
	ACOP has been working in close co-operation with the Home Office to improve enforcement rates. By April of this year, a second audit found that for cases dealt with in September 1999, 62 per cent of those who broke their orders or licences were breached. This is a welcome and significant improvement, but enforcement rates are still too low: the key performance indicator target is 90 per cent.
	The restructuring of the Probation Service will improve both its efficiency and focus and will enable it to provide a better and more consistent service. This will be achieved through the establishment of the national probation service for England and Wales. This unified and centrally-driven service will comprise 42 local areas, matching police force boundaries. As well as improving its overall efficiency, this restructuring will enable the service to build on the best of past experience and to concentrate more effectively on its core tasks: the enforcement of sentences and public protection.
	The restructuring will promote close working with police and other criminal justice agencies. New local boards will be more representative and will have a key role to play in working with others to develop effective local approaches to crime reduction.
	The new service will also develop, adopt and disseminate evidence-based approaches to community punishment and public protection. At the moment, the Probation Service is a fragmented organisation with only limited accountability to central government and its local communities. This new structure will allow greater consistency and should, over time, force up standards. The new boards will be fully accountable for service delivery in their areas.
	As a part of this restructuring, the aims of the national probation service will be clearly identified as: protecting the public; reducing reoffending; and the proper punishment of offenders in the community.
	In order further to clarify the aim and focus of the Probation Service, the Bill will also rename probation, community service, and combination orders as, respectively, community rehabilitation, community punishment, and community punishment and rehabilitation orders. Although I understand the concerns that some may have about renaming orders, I firmly believe that the new names more accurately reflect and describe the purpose of these community sentences. I also believe that the new names are more understandable to a wider public. That can only improve confidence in community sentencing.
	I am pleased that these proposals for the national probation service were largely welcomed by all sides in another place and I look forward to discussing them in more detail in Committee.
	As I mentioned earlier, the more effective enforcement of community sentences is a key aim of the Bill and, although great strides have been made recently to improve performance, more needs to be done if community sentences are to be regarded as truly effective and credible alternatives to custody.
	It is absolutely essential to have timely and effective enforcement of community sentences. There should be no doubts about the consequences of non-compliance. That is why, under the new regime, where an offender over 18 is not immediately returned to court after the first unacceptable failure to comply with an order, there will be a duty on the Probation Service to issue a warning and then return him to court on the second unacceptable failure within any 12-month period, or within six months for a curfew order. If the offender is found to be in breach, other than in exceptional circumstances, he will be sentenced to up to three months' imprisonment, or longer if the original offence would have merited a longer term of imprisonment. This Bill sends a clear message that community sentences are not a soft option.
	The establishment of the children and family court advisory and support service (CAFCASS) is designed to improve the service provided to children and families involved in family court proceedings. This new service will focus on the needs of children and families going through the court system by taking on the functions currently carried out by the Probation Service's family court welfare services, the guardian ad litem and the reporting officer service, and work with children undertaken by the office of the Official Solicitor.
	The aim of this new service will be to put children first and to offer a fast, flexible and consistent service. The establishment of this separate service will also enable the new national probation service to concentrate on its core task of law enforcement.
	I should like briefly to mention two other measures in the Bill which will improve the effectiveness of the criminal justice system. The first is the proposal to enable the police to have bulk access to driver licensing records for the purposes of road traffic enforcement. This is a relatively small measure, but it will significantly enhance the ability of police officers to carry out roadside checks to increase the speed at which they will be able to process accident and traffic offences. This will also result in increased convenience to the public, as in the vast majority of cases, motorists will no longer have to produce their driving licence at a police station as checks will be carried out on the spot. It will also offer the benefit of freeing up police resources that could be usefully deployed elsewhere.
	Another such measure, but this time in a custodial context, is the proposal to abolish the separate sentence of detention in a young offender institution (DYOI) for 18 to 20 year-olds. I know that concerns have been expressed about this proposal, but I firmly believe that this separate sentence has become anachronistic and that its removal will enable the Prison Service to address more effectively the needs of younger and more vulnerable prisoners. The Prison Service will build on work carried out so far as to how the abolition of the sentence of DYOI can best be implemented. The aim will be to develop regimes for young adult offenders, not only for those in the 18 to 20 age group, but also for those in their early 20s.
	Although post abolition those 18 to 20 year-olds given a custodial sentence will be sentenced to a term of imprisonment, this does not mean that they will be sent as a matter of course to what are currently adult prison establishments. Young offender institutions will continue to exist physically and will continue to provide constructive regimes specifically developed for younger offenders. Far from abandoning the 18 to 20 year-olds to fend for themselves, we have a positive commitment to develop programmes which better prepare them for release.
	The abolition of the separate sentence also brings the important benefit of enabling young people to be located closer to home than they are at present, thus improving the maintenance of vital family ties and aiding eventual resettlement. A small, segregated estate of some 6,500 18 to 20 year-olds inevitably places limitations on the extent to which the Prison Service can pursue its aim of locating prisoners closer to home. This is particularly true for the 300 or so female young offenders held in the small women's estate.
	As well as helping to ensure tougher and more consistent enforcement of community sentences, the Bill will also enable the Probation Service, the police and others to harness new and existing technologies in their efforts to reduce crime.
	The proposals to introduce mandatory drug testing on charge in the police station, pre-sentence, as part of a community sentence, and on release from prison, represent an important step in our efforts to combat drug-related crime. When examining these proposals, it is essential to bear in mind the scale of the problem we are attempting to address and how they fit into the Government's wider drugs strategy.
	A drug testing of arrestees research programme found that more than three out of five people arrested tested positive for an illegal drug. In some places the total was almost four out of five, with in some areas one-third testing positive for heroin and more than a quarter for cocaine. We know that between 50,000 and 60,000 problem drug misusers are arrested and prosecuted every year. Those in this group alone may each commit 150 crimes a year--roughly 7.5 million offences. This is the terrible scale and cost of drug-fuelled crime, and this is why as part of our wider strategy to combat drug misuse we are introducing drug testing at various stages of the criminal justice system.
	These measures will help to identify drug-misusing offenders who need treatment, to monitor their progress and to deter further drug misuse. Drug testing will complement other programmes such as the drug treatment and testing order, which has been successfully piloted in three sites and is to be rolled out nationally from October; £60 million will be made available over the next two years to support the introduction of the order, which includes funding for the related treatment costs.
	We are also investing £20 million over three years to ensure the spread of drug arrest referral schemes. Initial take-up indicates that 90 per cent of all custody suites in England and Wales will have arrest referral schemes by the end of the year.
	Around £100 million has been earmarked from 1999-2002 to tackle drug misuse among prisoners. This includes the establishment of a basic treatment service in every prison and the creation of more than 50 rehabilitation programmes to which prisoners requiring more intensive interventions can be referred.
	We are aware, however, that the new resources are exposing a shortage of capacity in drug treatment services. The Government are addressing this problem, and a national recruitment campaign for drug workers, funded by the confiscated assets fund, will result in nearly 700 drug workers being recruited and trained by next April. In addition, the Home Secretary announced on 8th June that consideration is being given to developing a new national treatment agency to oversee a pooled national treatment budget, bringing together money currently being spent on drug misuse treatment by the Department of Health and the Home Office.
	The Government have listened carefully to concerns expressed about the application of these new drug-testing measures. They will be piloted and, together with all the relevant agencies, we shall be able to gauge their effectiveness and ensure that the right balance is struck between individual civil liberties and the right of other individuals and communities to be protected from drug-related crime.
	As with drug testing, electronic monitoring is another technology that has already proven its worth in the fight against crime, with a successful completion rate of 90 per cent. Electronic monitoring is a valuable tool to improve public protection. As well as creating an exclusion order which will require an offender to stay away from certain places at certain times, and which could be particularly useful in cases of domestic violence and stalking, the Bill will allow for electronic monitoring of a range of community sentences and electronic monitoring of conditions of release on licence. These new uses of electronic monitoring will make compliance with community sentences far easier to monitor.
	I should like to make it clear that these measures are directed solely at improving public protection. They do not make any prisoner eligible for release earlier than at present, nor do they change the basis on which the release decisions are made. Early release decisions will always involve careful and thorough risk assessment. It is absolute nonsense to criticise the electronic monitoring of people who are released from prison, where the only alternative is for them to be released without the added protection provided by electronic monitoring.
	I fully understand the concerns that have been expressed about the early release of serious sex offenders. Perhaps I may make the Government's position absolutely clear: we are amending the Bill to exclude all prisoners convicted of offences subject to the Sex Offenders Act 1997 from the current home detention curfew scheme. It is essential that all necessary steps are taken to protect the public, but we should not lose sight of the fact that with a 94 per cent completion rate, HDC has been a great success and has made an important contribution to the safe resettlement of many offenders.
	The Government are totally committed to improving public protection, particularly the protection of children from those who may wish to harm them. The Bill builds on the Protection of Children Act 1999 to create an integrated system for preventing unsuitable people, such as sex offenders, from working with children. This system will be backed up with a new criminal offence of applying for, or accepting, work with children while banned. In developing these proposals, once again we have been mindful of the need to balance the rights of individual civil liberties with the rights of others to be protected from abuse. As part of these proposals, a new review process for all of those banned is to be introduced.
	Strengthening the protection of children from those who would wish to exploit them is at the heart of the Government's policy. That is why we set up the review of sex offences, which had increasing the protection of children as its central task. That review was not asked to look at the offences relating to pornography, or at the growth of the Internet as a medium for child pornography. I know that we all find this extremely worrying and we are concerned about the increase in the number of offences under the Protection of Children Act 1978. It is vital that the courts have the powers to deal appropriately with this vile trade which starts with child abuse.
	That is why the Government welcomed proposals by the Opposition in another place to increase the penalties for various offences relating to child pornography. We need to ensure that the penalties available reflect the seriousness with which society regards these sorts of abhorrent offences.
	I shall therefore be tabling amendments in Committee to increase the maximum penalty for simple possession of indecent images of children under 16 from six months' imprisonment, or a fine, or both, to a term not exceeding five years' imprisonment, or a fine, or both.
	While possession itself is a serious crime, there can be no doubt that taking, making, distributing, showing and possession with a view to distribution are even more grave offences. To this effect, the Government will table amendments in Committee to increase the maximum sentence for these crimes from three years, or a fine, or both, to 10 years, or a fine, or both.
	The Bill also builds on the range of youth justice reforms introduced by the Government over the past few years. As I mentioned earlier, it is vital to catch young offenders early to divert them from a life of crime. We have learnt from the use of a number of these measures and are keen to improve them.
	Experience has shown that the effect of a reprimand or final warning can be significantly enhanced by delivering it as part of a restorative justice process involving the young offender, his or her parents and, where appropriate, the victim. We propose to remove the existing requirement for reprimands and final warnings to be delivered in a police station, in order to introduce greater flexibility, allowing reprimands and warnings to be given in the most appropriate and accessible locations instead.
	Parenting orders provide an important new means of supporting parents in exercising proper responsibility for their children's behaviour--particularly where the child or young person has been convicted of an offence or where he or she is not attending school regularly. The Bill will extend the range of persons able to serve as a responsible officer under a parenting order to include local education authority staff working outside youth offending teams.
	The Bill also increases the penalty for parents who fail to ensure that their child attends school regularly, raising the penalty to a fine of up to £2,500 with the risk of imprisonment for up to three months. This proposal is the result of consultation undertaken by the DfEE last year through the document Tackling Truancy Together. Responses to the consultation were largely supportive of the proposal to increase the penalty for school attendance offences.
	As this measure attracted a degree of concern in another place, I should like to state clearly that the purpose is not to imprison parents who are already struggling, but it resolutely is about challenging the culture which tolerates the absence of children from school, and it reflects the serious impact that truancy can have on a child's future prospects in life. At the moment, the fine (level 3 on the standard scale; maximum £1,000) is in the same bracket as non-possession of a TV licence or vehicle road licence. That cannot be right.
	The purpose of this measure is to compel parents to attend court or risk arrest, as courts will have the power to issue a warrant. Currently, 80 per cent of parents summonsed under school attendance offences fail to attend trial. If parents are required to attend courts, magistrates will have the opportunity to reinforce the seriousness of the offence. They will also be able to consider passing alternative sentences, such as community service orders and the new parenting orders. This measure will reinforce the message that every child has the right to education and every parent has the duty to ensure that his or her child is educated.
	One last measure in the Bill that I should like to mention is the proposal that sentencing courts should be able to set the tariff in cases where young offenders under the age of 18 are sentenced to be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure as a result of committing murder. This measure brings our law into line with a key aspect of the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in the case of Thompson and Venables.
	Taken together, the measures in this Bill will modernise the criminal justice system to make it more effective in reducing crime and improving public protection. It will create a more flexible criminal justice system that can deal with each offender in the most appropriate way, be it in the community, in custody or a combination of both. These proposals help to pave the way for seamless sentencing--a principle that is to be taken forward through the recently announced sentencing review.
	At the heart of this Bill is the clear message that we are getting even tougher on crime by providing the Probation Service, the police and others with the tools needed to reduce crime and improve public protection, which is something that we should all support.

Lord Ackner: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps he will assist me on a small matter. To what extent has there been consultation with the current Lord Chief Justice on Clause 48? To what extent has there been consultation generally with Lord Justice Rose, particularly having regard to the very important liaison committee over which he presides? In relation to the Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) Bill, the Minister placed at the forefront of his speech the support of the Lord Chief Justice. Does the Minister have that support for Clause 48?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his question. Obviously, discussions with the Lord Chief Justice on this particular clause continue. I am aware of some of the proper concerns of the noble and learned Lord about that provision, which I entirely understand. That is a view to which members of the judiciary have long held. However, we believe that when looking at breaches, the flouting of orders of the court should be regarded as a serious matter. I understand the issue relating to judicial discretion, but clearly this is something that we can debate at greater length during the course of the Bill.

Lord Ackner: My Lords, can I take it that there was no consultation with Lord Justice Rose?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I cannot advise the noble and learned Lord whether or not there was specific consultation with Lord Justice Rose, but I shall happily look into the matter. I am aware that there are ongoing discussions. The Lord Chief Justice is involved in correspondence with, and makes his views well known to, the Home Office.
	I commend the Bill to the House.
	Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.--(Lord Bassam of Brighton.)

Lord Windlesham: My Lords, that exchange was worth waiting for, and I look forward to hearing the answer either from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, or the Attorney-General at a later stage.
	I intend to confine my speech to Parts I and III of the Bill, which deal with the reorganisation of the Probation Service and changes in community sentences and their enforcement. The Probation Service plays a crucial part in the operation of the criminal justice system. It is often overshadowed by the police and the Prison Service and it is easy to underestimate its significance. In 1998, which is the most recent year for which statistics are available, nearly 150,000 offenders in England and Wales were sentenced to non-custodial penalties, excluding fines. We are talking in the main about community penalties. That is one-and-a-half times more than the total number sentenced to custody.
	In thinking about the work of the Probation Service, to the total number of people serving community sentences at any one time must be added offenders who are subject to other categories of supervision, including parole and other forms of post-release supervision. Supervision apart, probation officers also have important responsibilities for preparing pre-sentence reports so that the court may pass a proportionate sentence, which is an aspect to which I shall return at the end of my remarks, and release plans for prisoners who are to be released from custody.
	We can all agree that, regrettably, in recent years the status of the Probation Service has not been valued by successive governments as highly as it deserves. In that context I welcome the tribute paid by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, to the work of the service. I am sure his words will be both noted and appreciated. But in the nature of things it is easier to highlight those who are subject to community penalties and reoffend when on probation than it is the larger number who complete their sentences successfully.
	The Government's response to this situation since 1997 has been twofold: managerial and punitive. In Part I of the Bill the present organisational structure, which is a service based on 54 areas, each answerable to a probation committee largely made up of local magistrates, is to be replaced by a unified national probation service for England and Wales which is to be directly accountable to the Home Secretary. The service will have a structure based on 42 local areas; a board composed of local people and boundaries coterminous with the police and Crown Prosecution Service. Whether the new nationalised service will lead to more efficiency in operation and greater protection for the public to compensate for its loss of independence from central direction, and its answerability to local magistrates, remains to be seen. But at least the reorganisation has been the subject of thorough discussion with the service over a lengthy period of time, and with a wider audience; I refer, for example, to the consultation document published in 1998, responses to which have been considered.
	The same cannot be said of the highly objectionable proposal contained in Clause 48, subsection (4), which requires a magistrates' court, unless there are exceptional circumstances, to impose a custodial sentence of up to three months on an offender aged 18 or above if he is found to be in breach of a specified community order, typically a probation order or community service order. Those orders are to be renamed in the Bill, I believe unnecessarily, as a gesture to tough-on-crime policies, but the nature of the community penalties themselves will remain essentially the same.
	The presumption of imprisonment, as it is called, uniquely combines two features which in recent years and months have been subjected to the strongest criticism in this House. The first is mandatory sentences of imprisonment, whereby the punishment is prescribed by law irrespective of the degree of culpability of the offender and the consequences of what he or she has done. That is fundamentally wrong. For years we had only one mandatory sentence: the mandatory sentence for murder. Then, in recent years, under both governments I regret to say, the list has lengthened. Mandatory sentencing takes away the discretion of the court other than in genuinely exceptional circumstances. We have the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, to thank for that qualification. This is well-trod ground. The Government must have been well aware of what they were stepping out on.
	In the Crime (Sentences) Act, which became law just after the 1997 election, but was introduced in Parliament prior to that election, three different categories of mandatory sentences were introduced. It was hoped that the third and largest category--mandatory sentence for repeat burglars--would never be implemented, but I fear that it has been.
	The second objectionable feature to the presumption of imprisonment is that only last week we debated in this House another populist-inspired initiative: the withdrawal or reduction of social security benefits if a breach of a community penalty was alleged, but not proved. That proposal was overwhelmingly rejected by your Lordships in a Division on Report. Both proposals--loss of benefit and presumption of imprisonment--are misconceived. It would be best if they were abandoned. If that is too much to hope, I would ask the Attorney-General to explain the relationship between the two separate penalties. They have come from quite different quarters--different Bills and different sponsoring departments.
	In relation to the mandatory penalty in Clause 48, for that is what it is, although there is an exceptional circumstances clause, there would have been no hope of getting it through Parliament without that provision. Let us consider the likely practical implications. The Home Office estimates that 25,000 people a year could be imprisoned for breach under these provisions at an additional cost to the Prison Service of £85 million in the first year, which includes £15 million capital cost and £70 million a year thereafter. Even those calculations, high as they are, are based on an absurd assumption of a 50 per cent deterrence factor for the measure. It is assumed that half the people who now fail to comply with an order would be so deterred by the threat of automatic imprisonment for a breach that they would comply. That flies in the face of all available evidence and research which has found that changes in sentencing have little deterrent effect, particularly on the type of offender who is sentenced to a community penalty.
	We are not talking here about people who consider the consequences of their acts; the reality is the opposite. The idea that there could be a 50 per cent deterrence factor is indeed absurd. That description comes not from me, but from the 41 organisations which make up the Penal Affairs Consortium. It includes not only representatives of the penal reform groups, but also of the statutory services. It must be more realistic to assume that an additional 50,000 people annually will be imprisoned should these provisions become law.

Lord Dholakia: My Lords, the Bill comes before your Lordships' House on a day when the Prime Minister is hosting a crime convention, now downgraded as a seminar, in Downing Street. Its purpose is clear: what to do about crime and the level of violence in inner cities. I am delighted that he has stepped back from well-reported views which include police escorting trouble makers to the cash machines to pay their fines. Perhaps I may say how delighted I am to see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn. We missed him.
	Last week, in a debate on the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Bill, I said that it was difficult to see what could have possessed a government so strongly committed to crime reduction to introduce a measure which would inevitably increase crime. It is equally difficult to understand what could have made a government so committed to tackling social exclusion bring forward a measure which will further worsen the exclusion from society of many vulnerable people.
	Today's Bill is no exception. It is a mixed bag. It contains some useful reforms which will bring about a more unified and consistent probation service, reduce the risk of unsuitable people entering the childcare profession and increase the scope for courts and the Parole Board to make imaginative use of electronic tagging requirements.
	However, some other elements of the Bill, which appear to have been designed to show how tough the Government are in a pre-election period, will further overcrowd the prisons while doing nothing to reduce crime. The worst of these provisions is the draconian requirement in Clause 48 for courts to gaol everyone who breaches a community sentence unless there are exceptional circumstances.
	The noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, spoke at length about the Probation Service. The reorganisation of the Probation Service into a new national probation service for England and Wales is broadly welcome. At present, with the service fragmented into 54 separate and independent areas and no national leader, it is difficult to ensure consistency of practice across England and Wales. Establishing a national service will make it easier to spread effective practice in supervising offenders nation-wide. A national director will be in a better position to act as a public advocate for the service and to press the case with government for more resources for the service. This will bring the Probation Service's area boundaries into line with those of the police and the CPS and will assist inter-agency work.
	However, we on this side of the House have one principal concern about this reorganisation: it is that the Government have not achieved the right balance between national and local accountability. In particular, it cannot be right that the Home Secretary should appoint not only chief probation officers but also chairs of local probation boards. If we are to find people of high calibre to chair and serve on probation boards, they will want to know that the boards are not simply puppets of central government and that they will have real clout in their local areas.
	The Bill creates a severe difficulty for the employers. The Central Probation Council is right to describe this measure as a recipe for confusion of accountability and authority which leaves the employers--in this case the probation boards--in an invidious position. We should take serious note of that. I hope that the Government will look again at this provision. Am I right that Ministers have spoken of the new probation service as following the health service model? Should not the probation boards have the same stature as health trusts and police authorities? We should certainly oppose any measure designed to increase the powers of the Home Secretary. My fear is not Jack Straw; it is that at some stage in the future Home Secretaries could impose oppressive powers to control this service. I trust that the Minister will think again about this particular measure.
	We welcome the arrangements set out in Clauses 25 to 36 to prevent unsuitable people working with children. Paedophiles often seek employment in child care settings, giving them the ability to wreak appalling abuse on vulnerable children who can have their lives wrecked as a consequence. The scheme set out in the Bill will prove a valuable safeguard for such children.
	We are pleased to see that, unlike the sex offenders register for example, the Bill gives the court a degree of discretion in deciding to which cases these restrictions should apply.
	The new exclusion orders contained in Clauses 41 and 46, prohibiting offenders from entering a specified area for a specified period, monitored by electronic tagging, could be a useful power if the orders are used sparingly and appropriately. For example, they could require a sex offender to stay away from the home of a victim or potential victim whom he has been targeting, or require a stalker or perpetrator of domestic violence to stay away from his or her former victim.
	We also welcome Clause 57, which enables requirements to submit to electronic monitoring to be included in the licence for offenders released from prison. There are undoubtedly borderline cases where the availability of electronic tagging could assure the Parole Board that it is safe to release on licence an offender who could be steered away from reoffending by parole supervision but who otherwise might be refused parole.
	I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, will contribute to this debate and I shall be delighted to listen to her views. There are three particular provisions in the Bill, however, which I believe are misguided. The first is the raft of provisions providing for mandatory drug testing of suspects and offenders at all stages of the criminal justice process.
	The resources for such extensive compulsory drug testing would be far better spent on providing more treatment services. I acknowledge that the Government have put more resources into drug treatment, but I am sure that the Minister would accept that there is still far too little treatment provision across the country. The Government estimate that the new testing provisions will cost over £45 million a year, comprising £22.6 million for drug testing people on arrest; £7.8 million for drug testing people serving community sentences; and £15.1 million for drug testing released prisoners. These resources could instead have financed a significant increase in community treatment for problem drug users.
	If the courts know of positive drug testing but do not have immediate resources for drug assessment or treatment services, they will simply remand more defendants to drug-ridden prisons. This is hardly the most sensible way of reducing drug-related crime. It would make much more sense to spend the money to ensure that more courts have ready access to drug services to which they can bail or sentence problem drug users who appear before them.
	Clause 63 is also misguided. It increases the maximum penalty for parents whose children persistently truant to three months' imprisonment. Imprisoning the parents of truants will do nothing to reduce crime. Anyone who has worked with persistent truants knows that they often come from difficult, disrupted and unstable family backgrounds. Giving their parents a prison sentence would worsen the situation by producing an even greater instability and hardship for the child and for the family as a whole.
	The worst feature of the Bill is Clause 48, which requires courts always to imprison offenders who breach community services unless there are exceptional circumstances. Mandatory sentences always produce injustice, and this will be no exception. It will further overcrowd the prisons and greatly increase the number of short-term prisoners for whom little if any rehabilitative work is done during a few weeks in custody. Typically, an offender who is returned to court for breach of an order will have failed to attend, or have been substantially late for, two probation appointments or community service sessions. In many cases the court will conclude that fining the offender and allowing the order to continue holds out more hope of preventing reoffending than imprisonment. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, however, it will be required to pass a prison sentence which it may regard as unjust, disproportionate and likely to increase the risk of reoffending.
	The Government estimate that 25,000 people a year could be imprisoned for breach under these provisions. As the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, pointed out, this would be an additional cost to the Prison Service of £85 million in the first year and £70 million a year thereafter. The true figure could be much higher, because these calculations are based on an assumption that 50 per cent of the people who now fail to comply with orders will be deterred from non-compliance by the threat of automatic imprisonment. This is an absurd assumption. It flies in the face of all the available evidence and research which has found that changes in sentencing have little deterrent effect. It would therefore be more realistic to assume that, under these provisions, anything up to 50,000 people will be imprisoned each year. We will certainly oppose this clause strenuously during the Committee stage.
	If this Bill had been limited to establishing a national probation service, to bringing forward measures to prevent unsuitable people from working with children and to extending the availability and flexibility of electronic tagging provisions, we could have welcomed it with just a few detailed reservations. It is regrettable that the Government, having allowed themselves to be suborned by their overwhelming desire to appear tough at all costs, include other measures in the Bill which will do serious damage to the sensible operation of our penal and criminal justice system.
	There are often matters in the Bill where clarity is required. The report of the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee has been submitted today. I was grateful for an advance copy. Will the Minister agree that in the matters relating to a drug treatment and testing order the negative procedures would be appropriate?
	Does the Minister accept the committee's recommendation that the powers in Clauses 41, 42, 45 and 46 allow for the amendment of the Bill to increase the severity of a sentencing power? Does the Minister accept that these powers should be omitted? Is not the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee making a strong recommendation that, if they are to remain, they should be subject to affirmative procedures?
	May I also draw attention to Clause 55, which I understand was added to the Bill in the other place. Am I right that this clause has been introduced to abolish the sentence of detention in a young offender institution? Does this mean that all convicted defendants over the age of 18 will be sentenced as adults?
	I understand that an assurance was given in the other place that vulnerable adult prisoners will not be put at risk. Precisely how will the vulnerability and particular needs of young adults in prison be safeguarded?
	The Prison Reform Trust tells me that there are currently 11,219 prisoners under the age of 21, just over 2,000 of whom are under 18. These juveniles, in the new youth justice system, are overseen by the Youth Justice Board. The Prison Service has worked to improve the quality and standards of the regime for the under-18s. The attention given to this group has, perhaps inevitably, led to a lack of attention and resources for young offender institutions holding those between the ages of 18 to 21. It is difficult to envisage how the particular needs of these young people will be attended to any better within the overcrowded prison system.
	There are a number of sensible proposals in the Bill; but equally there are serious matters of concern. Just to take the effect of Clause 48, its implementation would result in the almost automatic imprisonment of offenders who breach their community orders. That means many more prisoners a year. It effectively means three more prisons the size of Dartmoor. All of this does not take into account what is being discussed in Downing Street today.

Baroness Stern: My Lords, I wish that I could give the Bill a warm welcome. After all, it sets out to strengthen community penalties. That is obviously right, necessary, timely and an important part of the strategy to build a more cost-effective criminal justice system. It sets out to reform the Probation Service. Some reform of the structure of the Probation Service to enable it to play a part in national criminal justice policymaking is long overdue. More protection for children from abuse is highly desirable, as is the establishment of the children and family court advisory support service and flexibility for the final warnings in the youth justice system.
	But, sadly, one can welcome very little of the Bill. It is a measure with many missed opportunities, overlaid with a pointless punitiveness and, unfortunately, I fear, unlikely to achieve its aims.
	I want to begin by commenting on the plans to reform the Probation Service and the penalties supervised by probation officers. I welcome the plans to reorganise the Probation Service, but I have grave concerns about Clause 2(2) which sets out the aims of the new service. The third aim is,
	"the proper punishment of offenders".
	I am very surprised to see such an aim set out in a statute and I should appreciate clarification from the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General, who is infinitely more qualified than I to comment on that point. I thought that it was the court which punished. The order of the court, whether a prison or community sentence, is the punishment. To suggest that those supervising the court order, whether in prison or in the community, should themselves be doing the punishing seems to me to run contrary to all the international requirements on the treatment of offenders as well as causing strong offence to probation officers who carry out their work on a strong ethical basis. I should be grateful if the noble and learned Lord could tell the House whether he knows of any other western European jurisdiction in which the officers implementing the penalties, whether in the prison or in the community, are required by statute to take upon themselves the task of punishing.
	I now want to comment on Clauses 38 to 40, which relate to the renaming of orders. The proposed name changes have nothing to recommend them. They are confusing and the idea that they will increase public confidence seems very unlikely. I can imagine an advertising executive being quite daunted at the thought of having to devise a marketing campaign for a community rehabilitation order. Probably the best explanation is what we used to call "being put on probation".
	The new name for community service orders is even worse; that is, community punishment order. At one blow, the name change destroys the ethos and meaning of a sanction which was invented here in Britain and spread all around the world. The essence of a community service order is "service". It is a measure which brings into the sentencing framework an element of reparation, restitution, paying back to the community, and putting offenders in a position to rebuild their relationship with the community and awakening in them a sense of social obligation.
	At its best, it shows offenders that there are people worse off than themselves. It shows offenders that they can help people and be valued for it. Sometimes they voluntarily carry on with the community service work once the order is completed. It shows those being helped that offenders are people, too, and can do good as well as ill. It is a penalty with enormous possibilities for development. Once it becomes a community punishment order, it loses all that meaning. I really urge the Minister to reflect once more on the name changes.
	I turn to Clause 48, which relates to imprisonment for breach of community sentences. The noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, set out the case most eloquently. A major objection is that it removes discretion from the courts. It will lead to injustice and the courts will not be able to take the action which they believe to be right, having seen the person and heard the circumstances. It is most likely to lead, not to a reduction in crime, but to an increase in crime. Over the years, I have known many magistrates. They have all seemed to me to be capable of looking at the offender before them and deciding what course is the most likely to prevent further offending.
	As we have heard, the measure will mean that many more people will go to prison. Estimates vary between 25,000--the figure given by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, in May--and 50,000 if there is no deterrent effect. In that context, I want to draw the Minister's attention to research on deterrence commissioned by the Home Office from the Cambridge Institute of Criminology. It concludes that,
	"the studies reviewed do not provide a basis for inferring that increasing the severity of sentences generally is capable of enhancing deterrent effects".
	That research is available on the Home Office website and could probably be regarded as evidence-based.
	Increasing the number of people going to prison in one year by between 25,000 and 50,000 will increase the number of people receiving prison sentences by between 25 and 50 per cent. I want to remind the House what going to prison means. For many people, it means losing their homes. For most people in employment, it means losing their jobs and facing widespread discrimination in employment on release. It means meeting and getting to know many people who are looking for recruits for various criminal activities. It can mean becoming a drug addict. It is an experience which pushes people further out of legal society and towards the lawless fringes. It is socially very costly.
	We are grateful for the information we have been given about the likely cost of such an increase in the use of prison, but can the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General estimate the increase in social exclusion which will be created by the provision and the cost which will therefore fall to the budgets of other departments?
	I want to mention briefly the measures relating to drugs. The vast extension of drug testing is estimated to cost £45 million a year, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. The organisations which work daily with drug addicts have asked: what is the use of testing without treatment? The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, told us that 700 more drug workers will be recruited. Is that adequate when one considers the amount of drug misuse he described today?
	What effect will the measures have on the excellent and well thought-out arrest referral schemes? Under those schemes, people involved with drugs who are arrested are given the opportunity, when in the police station, to get help from voluntary agencies. How can that voluntary and apparently very effective approach be combined with such a raft of compulsory testing?
	I want to raise a concern about the abolition of the sentence of custody in a young offender institution. I understand the arguments--more flexibility and perhaps a chance to keep young offenders nearer their homes--but I fear the consequences. Because of pressure on the Prison Service--and it will be greatly increased by these measures--perhaps not as a matter of course, but as a matter of fact 18 year-olds will be placed on the normal adult wings in Wandsworth, Wormwood Scrubs, Liverpool and the other large prisons. They will be at serious risk of being inducted into the adult criminal world or worse.
	In conclusion, these measures have been presented as if they will increase public protection, ensure greater social peace and benefit victims. I am sure that the Attorney-General will not accuse those who oppose measures in the Bill of living in Hampstead, being lawyers and not caring about victims. That accusation is unsustainable. Victims are not helped if the names of community penalties are changed to something long and incomprehensible. Victims are not helped if drug abusers are tested and then there is no treatment. Victims on disadvantaged housing estates are not helped if many more of the young people who live there are ex-prisoners, unable to get a job and confirmed in their criminal identity by having served a prison sentence, even though it was for being late twice for a probation appointment.
	This is a measure of missed opportunities: a missed opportunity to create a framework for community penalties that will make it clear to the public that they work and that they benefit victims and society; a missed opportunity to develop community service in particular into a penalty that is clearly restorative, paying back something to the victim and to society; and a missed opportunity to give courts, judges and magistrates a greater role in imposing sentences that are specific to offenders and their circumstances, and following them through to see that they work. I hope that it is not too late for much of this ill-considered Bill to be improved.

Lord Warner: My Lords, I rise to support the Bill despite the concerns expressed by the previous three speakers, whom I greatly respect. I should make clear that I neither live in Hampstead nor am a lawyer. I see the Bill as another instalment in the Government's programme of reforming the criminal justice system to make it more effective, both organisationally and in terms of processes. This is episode three, following the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999.
	In making my observations, I declare an interest as chairman of the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales. It is no great secret that I was the Home Secretary's senior policy adviser from 1996 to the end of 1998. I share his desire to tackle the long-standing organisational problems of the criminal justice system and understand the importance of making community sentences more effective and publicly credible if they are to be seen as an alternative to prison.
	As I sit through debates in this House, I sometimes believe that we want to have it both ways: we want to drive down the prison population but we do not face up to some of the consequences of that in terms of credible and rigorously enforced community sentences. I want to remark on those issues before turning to more specialist aspects of the Bill.
	First, I come to the issue of reforming the Probation Service and increasing the credibility of community sentences. There is very little with which I am in any measure of agreement with the previous Home Secretary. However, he probably performed a public service in abolishing the earlier professional training for probation officers, based as it was on the diploma in social work. I say that having in a previous incarnation set up the first diploma in social work course in this country. Unfortunately, the Home Secretary put nothing in its place, and I was glad to have helped to establish a new qualification. It focuses much more on the enforcement aspects of probation work--an area where I believe some in the Probation Service have ended up on the wrong side of the argument about community punishment in relation to prisons and where a few are still positioned. We may hear from a few of them during the course of the Bill.
	The previous qualification and mix of functions were bound to leave the Probation Service confused about its primary role. Was it concerned primarily with enforcing court-ordered punishment or with welfare? I strongly support the removal of the family welfare function from the Probation Service and the establishment through this Bill of the new children and family court advisory and support service. Not only will it enable the new Probation Service to focus on its key task of enforcement; in my view, it will mean that we have a service to the courts which will better serve the interests of children.
	I turn now to the issue of enforcement of community sentences. As I said earlier, we cannot have it both ways. We cannot curb the rise in the prison population when crime rises decade by decade and at the same time persist with too narrow a range of community sanctions which are inadequately enforced. At Second Reading in the other place the Home Secretary cited one large probation area, which for the sake of decency I shall not name, where nine out of 10 offenders breached national standards by failing to turn up on three or more occasions for probation appointments but were not subjected to further action. I repeat: nine out of 10.
	I accept that enforcement has improved recently under leadership from ACOP, but that leadership started to be exercised effectively only when the Home Secretary began to press the public confidence aspects of properly enforced community punishments. If we do not want the prison population to rise decade by decade, we must face up to having a wider range of rigorous community punishments properly enforced through a reformed Probation Service, using new technology to the maximum.
	The other evening this House indulged in a good deal of wishful thinking about community punishments on the subject of making social security benefits conditional on not breaching a community order. Under the present probation arrangements, courts send more people to prison and for longer terms. Before we criticise Clause 48, we might reflect on how effective the present arrangements are.
	During the passage of the Bill we shall hear quite a lot of what I would describe as somewhat mealy-mouthed arguments about the terminology of community sentences. It seems to be entirely sensible to inject the word "punishment" into the title of such sentences. As a long-term supporter of the Plain English Campaign, I believe that we should call these sentences what they are: they are community punishments. The offenders, the victims, the general public and the enforcement service will then know where they stand.

Earl Russell: My Lords, does the noble Lord understand that the argument of the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, was not about the propriety of punishment; it was about the propriety of punishment being imposed by the executive?

Lord Warner: My Lords, we can have a philosophical debate about that and no doubt we shall do at later stages of the Bill. I am trying to set out my agenda in terms of my response to the Bill. I shall be happy to engage with the noble Earl and the noble Baroness in a philosophical discussion about that at a later stage.
	I believe that in plain English we are dealing with community punishments. In my judgment, being clear that they are punishments to be enforced in accordance with national standards makes it far easier for the courts to use them without fear of being accused of going for soft options. In addition, they will be more reassuring to victims and to public confidence. We cannot simply shrug away concerns about public confidence. That is not being populist; in this country we police by consent and operate our criminal justice system by a degree of public consent.
	Perhaps I may say a few words about the restructuring of the Probation Service. It is a key aspect of community enforcement to have the police and Probation Service working together closely, especially with sex offenders and persistent offenders. As many people in the Probation Service and the police service have said to me, realigning probation areas with police force areas is a major step forward. I believe that it is to be welcomed, as is the creation of a national probation service. It should provide the direction and leadership which are long overdue and provide greater consistency of enforcement between different areas.
	Of course, the local boards are important but we should not forget that the local management arrangements that are in place have not been totally successful in achieving resources for the Probation Service, in improving practice consistency and in achieving public recognition of the legitimate achievements of the Probation Service that other noble Lords have mentioned. A stronger national focus would improve some of those aspects.
	I strongly support the new measures on compulsory drug testing. Of course they will cost more to implement and of course it follows that more testing is likely to mean more positive results and the need for more treatment services. However, the fact that treatment services are still inadequate in some places does not mean that we should hold back on compulsory testing, as some are suggesting. That is a false argument. The two are not alternatives. We need both testing and treatment services.
	Drug action teams should use the new money that has been provided to press on more vigorously than has so far been the case with the expansion of treatment services. The slow progress on testing should not be used as an argument to justify not pressing on with compulsory testing.
	We have yet to exploit the full potential of new technology for electronic monitoring, which, combined with effective supervision, could help to create effective community punishments. I hope that the Government will not be deflected by the contrived attacks of the Opposition spokesman in the other place on home detention curfews. They have been a huge success when applied to people who were coming out of prison on licence anyway, with more than 95 per cent of offenders completing their period of HDC without being convicted or cautioned or having proceedings still pending. That shows what we can achieve on community punishment if we set our minds to it. I welcome the provision in the Bill to make further use of electronic monitoring as an alternative to prison. It can often be a more effective way of punishing.
	Finally, I welcome the new measures on juveniles. I particularly welcome the measure to help to prevent unsuitable people working with children and to make it a criminal offence for anyone so identified to apply for or accept work with children. From my experience in social services, I know that paedophiles are devious people and are far from self-evident. The Government are to be congratulated on further strengthening the provisions against people who seek to abuse children. It is clear from the debate so far that there will be many areas of detailed scrutiny and discussion as we take the Bill through the House, but its shape and content make it an important criminal justice reforming measure that deserves our full support.

Lord Ackner: My Lords, I start with a general point. I am appalled by the recent attempts to politicise the administration of criminal justice. The Government and the Opposition appear to be vying with each other as to who is the tougher on crime. Having apparently been stung by the criticism of having done too little to stop English football thugs causing mayhem at Euro 2000, thereby seriously, if not fatally, prejudicing the 2006 World Cup bid, the Government have resorted to gesture politics.
	The Prime Minister's lecture at Tubinger University in Germany last Saturday gave the clearest indication that the urge to take action to convince the public that something positive is being done is so strong that no time is taken to think through the proposals, or even to consult those who are affected. Apart from the obvious forensic criticisms, based on the common law or on human rights legislation, which I need not repeat, I ask from a practical point of view how the police are to cope with football thugs who, in preparing themselves for a night of thuggery, are wise enough to take the precaution of carrying neither money nor credit cards with them.
	It was not ever thus. Until the 1990s, sentencing and the criminal law were not party political issues. Legislation was not introduced to score political points. In the 1970s, criminal justice legislation would not have been introduced unless a neutral body, such as an interdepartmental committee, had thoroughly reviewed the issues and produced the proposals. As a result, it was considered excessive to have even one new criminal justice Bill a year.
	That system has disappeared. Legislation now emerging from the Government is politically driven, such as the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997. Outside bodies, such as the Advisory Council on the Penal System and the Criminal Law Revision Committee, have almost completely disappeared. Not long ago, there was bipartisan consensus that the aims of sentencing should concentrate firmly on the rehabilitation of offenders. Of course, no one doubted for a moment that those who commit serious crimes must receive a custodial sentence. That approach appears no longer to be politically correct. The Government and the Opposition appear to have overlooked Section 1 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991, which makes prison the sentence of last resort.
	Clause 48 provides an almost automatic sentence of imprisonment. The Government well know that the words "exceptional circumstances" have been so narrowly defined by the courts that they have almost come to mean "once in a blue moon". By seeking to remove judicial discretion, the Government are attacking judicial independence. If Parliament requires the judiciary to impose a sentence that the judiciary considers unjust, it is a clear attack on the independence of the judge.
	Your Lordships had no difficulty in appreciating that concept when, some time ago, I drew attention to the Russian phenomenon of telephone judges, who were phoned up by the executive during a trial and told what sentence should be imposed. When I took up that issue, somewhat critically, at a dinner party where I met the chief prosecuting counsel, he waved my criticisms aside, saying, "Well, after all our hard work, we are not going to run the risk of judges making a nonsense of what we have achieved".
	Save as a matter of degree, I do not see that what is happening here by statute is all that different. Instead of being rung up and told what sentence to provide, Parliament has set it out in the statute. It does not matter how unjust you think it is as a judge, unless there are exceptional circumstances--a sense of injustice is not one of them--that is the sentence that you are obliged to impose. The results of Clause 48 will involve, from to time, a judge being obliged to impose a sentence which he considers is unjust. In any event, it is a sentence which is likely to be too short for any rehabilitation work.
	There has already been reference to the extent to which this provision will increase, and substantially increase, the prison population. There has already been a reference to the cost involved. There seems to be little to support the nature of that provision except that the executive does not have confidence in those who are appointed to exercise the judicial function.
	To some extent, I applaud the Bill because it is an indication that the Government realise that the public must be educated to understand that sentences within the community involve punishment. Unless the public so understand, there will be inadequate confidence in community sentences and as a result, under the impact of public opinion, the prison population will increase.
	The Government are foolish to place so little confidence in the reasoning ability of the public and in their understanding of the elementary points of sentencing. Renaming sentences--Clauses 38, 39 and 40--will not achieve anything at all. It may add to confusion in that the probation order will sound very similar to the community order. Strangely enough, the probation order does not refer to punishment and the community service order does not refer to rehabilitation. As I suggest, there is likely to be confusion as a result.
	I do not wish to take up further time on other matters in the Bill because they have been well covered by previous speakers. I accept the strength and validity of their criticism. I hope that the Government will think again, but hope is now beginning not to spring eternal, having regard to the extraordinary behaviour in which this Government and the Opposition are indulging on the subject of punishment.

Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, two months ago, I received the customary letter from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, informing me that, having reached a certain age, my services as a magistrate were no longer required. It is in that capacity that I declare an interest and express my personal views gained from over 30 years on the Bench.
	I never served on the youth panel so my only experience with children was via the family court. I saw that work as very much a protection issue for the innocent children caught up by warring parents unable to settle their differences concerning the children.
	After many years spent listening to heart-rending situations involving children, I learnt how important it was to have wise advice from dedicated professionals. Therefore, I welcome measures which will strengthen that support and, it is hoped, ease the way for distressed and unhappy families.
	Like all new services, CAFCASS, as I am sure it will be called, will require adequate funding. If the necessary finance is not forthcoming, there will be great frustration as expectations will not be realised. Therefore I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General will be able to assure me that the service will be properly resourced and has been thought through in detail.
	Mentioning the words "thought through in detail" leads me to wonder at this point whether the Prime Minister's initiative on loutish behaviour will be included in this Bill. I was amazed at what appeared to be a comment off the top of his head when he was in a panic. I was even more astonished that a Prime Minister should announce such a measure when he was in another country. It seemed to me to be rather like washing dirty linen in public. Potential visitors from Germany may think twice about coming here if they accept the Prime Minister's view that such behaviour is prevalent in every town and village.
	Part II is perhaps the most important part of the Bill. I am sure that other noble Lords were as horrified as I was by the depravity and cruelty which took place not only in Wales but in other institutions around Britain. Those were children who, through no fault of their own, had been placed in care. I can hardly bear to use the phrase "in care". The children were subjected to the most appalling and terrible experiences. I feel deeply ashamed whenever I think of it. How on earth did we let it happen?
	I have never forgotten the exhibition organised by the police on paedophiles and their behaviour, although I felt that I just could not stay until the end because it was too upsetting. I saw a video of how a small boy was sexually abused. His expression of sheer fear, terror and misery haunts me constantly.
	People who offend in that way should not be allowed to work or have close contact with children, I believe, ever again. I welcome measures introduced to reflect that concern. In particular, I welcome placing the burden of proof on the individual to show that he is no longer a risk if he should ever apply for the order to be revoked. But we shall need to look at the arrangements for those disqualification orders. I understand that they will be used only against criminals sentenced to 12 months or more. That seems to leave a loophole and amendments must be tabled to deal with that in Committee.
	Another area of concern is the patronage which will be vested in the hands of the Secretary of State. Just as in the Learning and Skills Bill, there is that great centralising measure with the chairmen of both national and local boards being appointed by the Secretary of State. That will need extremely careful scrutiny in Committee.
	Part III deals with offenders. I was saddened to see that the Government want to change the name of some court orders as, apparently, Ministers feel that the present names are not understood. I disagree and cannot accept that "community rehabilitation" is better than "probation". After all, the expression "probation" has been in use for many years and I believe that it is understood by most people, even if not by Her Majesty's Government. In particular, it is understood by those people appearing before the courts.
	I also believe that "community service" is more acceptable than "community punishment". After all "service" is what is being done--unpaid work for the community. However, I concede that the phrase "combination order" is awkward and would be better expressed as "probation and community service order".
	I hope that this is not change for the sake of change and I hope that it is not yet another of new Labour's modernisation obsessions.
	That leads to breach of community orders. I am deeply concerned that mandatory imprisonment for failure to comply with an order is creating a straitjacket. For example, it takes no account of those suffering from mental illness. I am reminded of unit fines, which were inflexible on introduction but were soon altered. Magistrates should be given the discretion and flexibility to make decisions in each case without the stricture of obligatory penalties. I believe, however, that if an offender breaches an order, he should be dealt with firmly and speedily. He may, indeed, receive a custodial sentence but not a mandatory one.
	The Bill has already been the cause of much debate on the issue of the non-attendance of pupils at school. The Bill would raise the maximum penalty from level 3 to level 4; in other words, from a fine of £1,000 to one of £2,500 and/or three months' imprisonment. It seems rather absurd to raise the fine to such a high level. During my time on the Bench I occasionally heard cases of that nature. Most of those who appeared before us were single mothers on benefit who also had other children. I have looked at the current sentencing guidelines for a first offence for someone in that position. Where a child has missed three weeks at school, the starting point would be £40 or, if a child missed half a term, £100. A guilty plea would result in a discount in which the fines would be £26 instead of £40 or £66 instead of £100. That is obviously a far cry from £1,000 never mind £2,500.
	I am told that the purpose of raising the level is to give the court the power to issue a warrant for arrest if the parent fails to attend a court hearing. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that. I believe that parents should attend to explain why a child has not been going to school. However, that seems to be a heavy-handed way to go about it. I would hope that another method could be found to achieve the same ends.
	I have always felt that the problem was the delay in getting the case to court. I remember a case where the non or minimal attendance was spread over two terms. It must be better to bring the case at a much earlier stage. It would be helpful if the Minister could say how many pilot parenting orders have been made in the past two years and how effective they have been. I would also welcome a copy of the evaluation. The Bill is therefore like the curate's egg: it has some good points which I welcome but others which are in need of amendment.
	The Government have an enormous problem. Crime--particularly violent crime--is rising. Police numbers are falling and new measures will require more manpower. I hope that your Lordships will agree that we have a responsibility to ensure that where possible we improve the Bill so that, when enacted, it will be a useful tool in the battle against crime.

Baroness David: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear exposition of the Bill, which makes two sensible and interesting changes to the Probation Service and the court welfare services. The Probation Service is reorganised into a national probation service for England and Wales, the 54 present separate services being reduced to 42. Their areas will be coterminous with the police and Crown Prosecution Service. That should make for greater consistency of practice and make it easier to spread good practice across the country. One national director should be in a more powerful position to put the case for adequate resources, which are essential if the Government's aims of reducing offending and protecting the public are to be realised. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, I should like reassurance about the resources to be provided.
	The other change is the creation of a unified service for the court welfare services which will become the children and family court advisory and support service, or CAFCASS, as it is now called. I am not keen on acronyms, but that is certainly less of a mouthful than the whole six words. It is to be a merger of the guardian ad litem and reporting officer service for public law cases; the family court welfare service for private law cases, and the children's section of the Official Solicitor's office.
	The aim of creating a single source of expertise within the court system is to be welcomed. It may take a little time to settle down and make those now working in the system happy that their interests and expertise will not be diluted or ignored. I know that the guardians ad litem have some anxieties concerning: first, the qualifications of the officers of CAFCASS; secondly, the right to conduct litigation and right of audience (which comes within Clause 15); and, thirdly, the inspection service.
	When the Minister, Paul Boateng, and the Parliamentary Secretary, Mrs Jane Kennedy, came to speak to the All Party Children Group last week--we are very grateful that they did--I asked about training. I was told that discussions are underway regarding an integrated strategy and accreditation scheme and that the Government were looking at continual professional development, an issue which has been ignored in the past. Both trainee and in-service training issues, as a modular degree course based on the OU distance learning approach, were being considered.
	The aim is to have CAFCASS up and running by April 2001. Training recommendations are to be ready by September 2000. Further decisions depended on the appointment of a chairman and board for CAFCASS. When is that to happen? September 2000 is very near. If the new service is to be a success, which we all want it to be, the training programme is vitally important. Existing officers, who may have their job descriptions changed, will want to know how they are to work. They need to know soon if morale is to be kept up.
	A second issue which I raised at the meeting was the matter of how children's views will be held by the court. Clause 12(1)(c) of the Bill defines as one of the service's duties:
	"to make provision for the children to be represented in [family] ... proceedings".
	That begs the question: what is to be represented, the child's wishes or the child's best interests, or both? To put it another way, if there is a conflict between the CAFCASS officer and the child, who instructs the lawyer?
	Under the rules governing guardians ad litem, if the guardian's views of best interests conflict with the child's view of his or her best interests, the child has the right to be separately represented by a lawyer, while the guardian continues to report to the court.
	On the other hand, the Official Solicitor only ever represents the child's best interests. He usually informs the court of the child's views, but that does not mean that he represents them. Indeed, he may argue against them. Can the Minister, or the Attorney-General, when he replies tell us how this problem is to be resolved, and also how Article 12 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child has to be considered?
	I turn to Part III of the Bill, about which I have quite a few reservations. I should like to say, before embarking on this part of my remarks, that I am totally sympathetic to the aims of the Government in trying to reassure the public that the Government understand the frustration and horror that those who suffer burglary, vandalism, assault, and noise feel about the system that allows this to continue. They think that the Government are soft and the sentences inadequate, particularly the community service order.
	We have to make it clear that it is an adequate and useful sentence, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stern said, and that breaches will be dealt with quickly. I know that there has been some slowness regarding that, but there has been a great deal of improvement lately and I am sure that the Probation Service appreciates that there must be. I firmly believe that to change the name of the order to "community punishment order" is a bad mistake. It is even slightly ridiculous. It sounds as if it is the community that is to be punished and not the offender.
	I hope that Government will listen to the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, which I thought were very sound. Of course, the offender must repay his debt to society. However, at the same time he must be put in the way of learning other ways to behave, and of new possibilities for job training. He must find new interests and meet people who can sympathise and help. I dread to think what Lady Wootton would have thought of the proposals in the Bill for the name of the order. It was she and her advisory council at the Home Office who invented the community service order, which can be so successful and could be made so now. I hope very much that we can go back to "community service order". I think that it can be made to be understood by the public.
	I am also against bringing offenders back to court without a second warning and the magistrate being given no discretion at all, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, and others have said. That is quite wrong. There will be increased pressure on the over-crowded prison system with little if any rehabilitation taking place during the few weeks in custody. In many cases a fine and a continuing order is much more likely to prevent the offender from reoffending, and I hope that we can make changes in that regard.
	As has been said, even the Home Office suggests that 25,000 people or more will be sent to prison, at enormous cost. That is an incredible waste of taxpayers' money. My noble friend Lord Warner told some of us a week or so ago about the highly successful work being done by the Youth Justice Board. If something new is required, perhaps that could be extended to the 18 to 25 year-olds; that would be far better than sending those young people to prison.
	My final point concerns the proposals to increase the penalties on parents for the truancy of their children. The fine on parents of a persistent truant is to be £2,500 or three months in prison. Parents of such children are most unlikely to be able to pay even modest fines, let alone those of £2,500. They tend to come from the poorest areas with the lowest incomes, and most have a range of social problems. The schools themselves will begin to experience problems if this provision is brought into force. If the parents are sent to gaol, it is likely that the children will be taken into care, thus adding another problem to an already dysfunctional family.
	And the question of human rights may arise. Surely people should not be deprived of their liberty for the actions or non-actions of others. I hope that the Attorney-General will think about that. The Government have given commendable support to non-punitive anti-truancy programmes Perhaps they can be extended.
	There are some aspects of the Bill to praise. The protection of children is enhanced. But I, like many others, have raised matters of concern. I hope that the Attorney-General can reply in a positive way. Let us make improvements to the Bill as it goes through this House so that we can be proud of it. At this moment, I cannot really say that I am.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I suspect that no Bill on crime and punishment in this age will be anything but extremely difficult to put together. This Bill is no exception. Our job is to scrutinise and speak up about those areas where we feel improvements can be made. I agree with much that has already been said.
	In relation to one point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, reference to "punishment" in the issues to be considered under Clause 2 by the new probation service (as I shall persist in calling it) is a mistake. However, I congratulate the Government on the protection of children provisions, Clauses 25 to 37, which are a model by comparison with what I am afraid is now law in the Care Standards Act, about which we had many debates hitherto. It may be that there is a difference in departments, but the Home Office understands a great deal about basic human rights and procedures.
	But even in commending those provisions I raise one issue: as things stand, the Secretary of State can, by order, extend the range of offences in respect of which disqualification from working with children will automatically apply. That is an important issue. It adds a second and in many cases more important punishment to an offence than the punishment provided under the mainstream criminal law. That extension should therefore be granted by a positive procedure.
	My other point on the disqualification arrangement again echoes what the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, was saying rather eloquently in terms of the rehabilitation of offenders, which I am sure we all agree is difficult to achieve. Is it necessary to say, as the Bill says, that someone who is disqualified from working with children cannot make an application for the lifting of that disqualification, not merely 10 years after the offence was committed, but 10 years after he or she was released from prison? That creates a difficult climate in which individuals can hope, within prison, to rehabilitate themselves so that, in the case of a long sentence, they will come out of prison radically altered from the state in which they went in.
	I should like briefly to back what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady David, in relation to Clause 15, which allows the new service, CAFCASS, to appoint an officer to represent a child in proceedings rather than, as now, a solicitor or solicitor and barrister. In that regard, representing what many of us think, Barnardo's said,
	"Barnardo's believes that the best interests of the child ... have been well served by the combination of the Guardian Ad Litem and the child's solicitor ... We are concerned that this Bill will diminish an effective system ... If the guardian is no longer able to instruct a suitably qualified lawyer"--
	of course, there is now a highly developed children's lawyer panel--
	"there is a risk that the views and opinions of the child will not be fully heard by the Court".
	Clause 16 allows the officer who is acting as advocate for the child to be a witness in the case. How can that be satisfactory? How can someone in the witness box represent a child who is sitting in the court? How can the child's questions be asked if the witness is the advocate? I feel that that needs looking into and shall be interested to hear more when the Government respond.
	I should like to make one or two points on Clause 28. It has been well covered and I agree with the points made. The Probation Service in Inner London carried out a two-year survey into breaches of monitoring. It found that over the relevant period 28 per cent of the total case load had been breached; that is, 4,388 cases; and during that period, 21 per cent of those breaches received a custodial sentence. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, I do not see how the increasing use of prison sentencing now can be anything but increased further if Clause 28 goes ahead. It places a near compulsion on magistrates to send offenders to prison.
	My next point concerns the arrangement in Schedule 1 for what are called "local boards"; the old probation committees. Schedules tend to be rather dry stuff, as I know only too well, but sometimes the devil is in the detail and Schedule 1 is no exception. My colleague has already referred to some of the aspects of this schedule, but I urge your Lordships to look at it. It is an astonishing display of control freakery. This is a government-created quango--if that is the right description of these local boards. Incidentally, while we are on nomenclature, is not that the most unmemorable, downbeat title for such an important new body? They are not even "probation local boards", just "local boards".
	As I say, Schedule 1 gives the Secretary of State a totally counterproductive set of powers. One might expect the appointment of local boards to come from the Secretary of State. But, as my noble friend Lord Dholakia said in opening from these Benches, the right is also reserved to appoint the chief executive of the local board, and he or she will then be on the local board. At the moment, the probation committees appoint their own chief executives. They have to draw up a short list which the Home Office then has to approve, and the person they select has to be approved by the Home Office. But this is a big leap. Once appointed by the Secretary of State, the chief executive is then employed by the Crown: he is not an employee of the local board. Everyone else is, but not the chief executive. It does not need anyone who is experienced in organisations--I spent 25 years of my long legal career looking at little else--to see that that is a self-defeating state of affairs. It creates conflict; it creates pressures; and it creates suspicion. Who does the poor chief executive look to when there is a dispute between the local board and the Secretary of State? I do not need to go on.
	The "tenure of members" of the board is totally determined by the Secretary of State as, indeed, are the procedures. Remuneration is also determined by the Secretary of state, but that is fair enough. Sub-committees, and so on, are totally determined by the Secretary of State. Then we come to paragraph 8 of the schedule where, for one scintilla of a second, you think that here is a power that the local board can exercise. Paragraph 8(1) states:
	"A local board may appoint staff on terms and conditions determined by the local board"--
	hooray! But, sub-paragraph (2) states that any such determination,
	"requires the approval of the Secretary of State",
	and so on.
	Paragraph 11, which is headed "Payments to Boards", states that the Secretary of State
	"may pay ... any amount he considers appropriate";
	but then he may not. The supervision of these local boards is also totally determined by the Secretary of State, as are its ancillary powers. In that respect, the boards cannot borrow. How on earth can a local board get on with its work if it cannot borrow to tide itself over cashflow difficulties? Indeed, the current probation committees do so. Moreover, it cannot hold land.
	I believe that the Government have gone to the expense of £1 million to commission a consultants' report on property--noble Lords know what we all think of consultants' reports--and a right old shambles that is. Although it may seem a rather trivial home-keeping issue, I believe that we should take account of what the Central Probation Council and the National Association of Probation Officers say; namely, that this is a very important bureaucratic issue that will cause mayhem, waste and frustration.
	Directions can be given; indeed, paragraph 14 of Schedule 1 says that "different directions" may be given for,
	"different purposes ... either general or special".
	Frankly, it would not require anyone in the Home Office who was anything more than incompetent to grind this whole magnificent system to a complete halt. Therefore, I urge the Government very strongly to reconsider the whole of Schedule 1. If there is no degree of trust between government and these local boards, we shall not get performance. Moreover, I do not think that good people will want to serve on the boards if they are as ludicrously constrained, as is currently the case, with regard to their powers.
	As I am sure your Lordships will agree, it is difficult enough even now to get good, experienced and capable men and women in the midst of their careers to take on such obligations. I really do despair when one has, as one has at the back of this proposal, the assumption that somehow the centre will do it better than the regions, or the localities. In his opening remarks, the Minister talked about a "unified and centrally-driven service"; it is certainly that. He also talked about the local boards being "more representative". But how on earth will they be more representative? Indeed, they cannot conceivably be more so than those run and appointed by local authorities, as is the case now.
	The noble Lord, Lord Warner, said--I think I quote him correctly--that the central control that the Bill will give, especially under Schedule 1, will provide both "direction and leadership", which is long overdue. Does the noble Lord really believe that? Frankly, I do not. This is the absolute recipe for a eunuch board or a series of eunuch boards, which will be worse than useless.
	The noble Lord also said that probation committees have not done a "totally successful" job of getting the necessary resources. Surprise, surprise! Just tell me about one arm of state--schools, hospitals or pensions--that has a plenitude of resources. Whose fault is that? What about the next government, or the one after? Are we really content for this crucial service to remain so totally at the whim, and in the hands, of the Secretary of State of the time? I am not; and I have not found anyone out there who thinks that this is satisfactory. On that issue, I urge strongly that the Government should look rationally and objectively at this--I should not say that because they always do so. Perhaps I should just urge them to look again.

Baroness Prashar: My Lords, from my position as chairman of the Parole Board of England and Wales I shall concentrate of Part I of the Bill--that is, the creation of the national probation service--and parts of the Bill that deal with greater use of electronic monitoring, stricter enforcement and the new powers for compulsory drug testing of offenders and alleged offenders.
	Perhaps I may turn, first, to the creation of the national probation service. I believe that this legislation provides an opportunity to bring about greater consistency and co-operation between the criminal justice agencies; it provides a launch pad for the Probation Service to be even better at reducing offending and reoffending and protecting the public; it places the Probation Service in a better position to persuade the courts and the public that community supervision is vigorous and effective in combating crime.
	I particularly welcome the fact that the Bill will result in a stronger national identity and consistency for probation services, together with strong local accountability and service delivery. As we have heard, with the Probation Service fragmented into 54 areas at present and with no national leader, it is difficult to ensure consistency of practice and spread effective practice in supervising offenders nationwide.
	The Parole Board works closely with the Probation Service and so we observe from very close quarters the importance of the service's contribution to criminal justice. In recent years, I have witnessed enormous changes in the service. The one significant change is that the service now sees itself very much as part of the criminal justice system, concerned not only with rehabilitation but also with public protection. It is therefore hard to imagine a more difficult and sensitive job than the one which the Probation Service performs. It is equally hard to imagine an effective penal system that does not rely heavily on the professional skills and experience of the Probation Service.
	Any measures that strengthen the ability of the Probation Service to perform this crucial role need to be supported. The role of the Probation Service is, and must continue to be, central in relation to those who are in the community; those who are in prison; and those who are making the difficult transition from prison back into the community.
	Today, I should like to take time in your Lordships' House to spell out, from the point of view of the Parole Board, how the proposed changes will impact on throughcare and discretionary early release of prisoners. Joint working between the Prison Service and the Probation Service is of great importance to the Parole Board. This working together will ensure that the reports and risk assessments that we receive from prisons and probation officers will be of the highest quality. Risk assessment, which enables us to determine whether an offender is suitable for discretionary release on licence, is a shared concern and is one of the most exacting tasks.
	It is recognised as a starting point of work with offenders and the starting point of sentence planning. Probation staff work within prisons and assist prison management to monitor, evaluate and develop resettlement plans with a view to assessing and managing risk. Prison-based probation staff use their links with the outside Probation Service to obtain information about potentially dangerous behaviour and contribute to inter-disciplinary risk assessments for various purposes.
	The work of the Probation Service in managing offenders in the community following their release from custody should, therefore, be built on the work undertaken in prisons. Better alignment of organisational boundaries within the criminal justice system would assist this further. It would also improve consistency of performance and standards between areas that are currently left to ad hoc local arrangements and differing interpretations of best practice. It would enable improvement of arrangements for disseminating best practice and enable the Parole Board to become involved in probation policy formulation that impacts on discretionary release issues. A national headquarters with which the Parole Board could have direct contact and develop working relationships would overcome the difficulties of communication that we currently encounter.
	Central accountability would also help to overcome inconsistencies between probation areas. It would give the service a strong voice at all levels, which is bound to improve the way in which prisoners are managed before and after release.
	There is also great merit in co-ordination of corrections policy which has shared aims and objectives, the same risk assessment bench marks and methods and the same systems of accrediting programmes for offenders. However, it will be important for the service to retain local links and local accountability if it is to retain its effectiveness and remain responsive to local needs and circumstances. A national probation service would not necessarily lead to a better service. The balance between police and operational competencies is important and it is this balance which in my view would ensure an effective probation service. Moreover, to perform its role effectively the service needs support, understanding, appropriate and workable organisational structures and, of course, resources, which have already been mentioned.
	The Penal Affairs Consortium has argued that the division of accountability between central government and local probation boards must be clarified and boards must have sufficient clout to ensure that local people of high calibre will consider that it is worth being on them. Sufficient resources must be made available to the Probation Service and voluntary partner organisations to allow high quality work to take place which builds on evidence of what works most effectively in reducing crime. It would be helpful to be given assurances on these issues.
	Furthermore, supervision and rehabilitation are at the heart of the new national probation service. This is an opportunity for the Government to set out clearly the overall aims of the service, as I believe that this would help to improve public understanding of the service and increase public confidence. While enforcement of licences when people are released from prison and enforcement of community penalties are critical, I argue that the service's role in rehabilitation is equally important. I therefore urge the Government to spell out the Probation Service's role in rehabilitation.
	As we know, the Probation Service has a history which stretches back over 100 years. There is a richness here which has relevance to the Government's aspirations for the modernised Probation Service. The service has always worked with those at the fringes, trying to influence the lives of those whom society finds easier to exclude than to include. Some people in our communities experience disadvantage from an early age. We all recognise that our prisons are more likely to be filled with those who have poor family backgrounds, fail at school and drift into unemployment.
	Tackling crime means tackling such problems. Punishment and the strict enforcement of community sentences are a legitimate part of the community's expectations, but the Probation Service knows from its own rich experience that preventing offending requires individual offenders to acquire a true sense of citizenship. That is a human right. The Probation Service has vast skill in challenging unacceptable behaviour and promoting the re-integration of offenders. These are the ingredients of a true recipe for crime reduction and we would do well to remember it. The desire for revenge is so often allowed to dominate the way we punish crime in this country. Rhetoric about toughness so often lends itself to policies which make it more difficult to make a real difference to the level of crime that we face.
	If we want to increase public confidence and reduce levels of crime, we must focus on prevention, inclusion and rehabilitation. Exclusion, revenge and intolerance are not the way forward.
	The service has a particular expertise in community-based risk assessment. Recognising the danger signals in attitudes and behaviour are part of the service's shrewdness. The way it handles the most difficult and dangerous people in society proves its capability. This expertise is relevant to the enforcement of community penalties and is vital to the courts and other parts of the criminal justice system. It would therefore be a backward step if the service were to be allowed no discretion. What I have in mind here is the clause which replaces two non-statutory formal warnings with a single statutory one and introduces a presumption of imprisonment for offenders who are found to be in breach of a community sentence.
	I do not argue with the introduction of a single warning before breach proceedings are initiated, but I believe that a near mandatory prison sentence is bad law. It will impose needless costs on the Prison Service and increase pressure on the prison system by increasing the number of short-term prisoners for whom little, if any, rehabilitative work is undertaken during a few weeks in prison. It will undermine the effectiveness of probation work. Moreover, the presumption of imprisonment is a significant erosion of judicial discretion in sentencing and will make it inevitable that some offenders will go to prison in direct conflict with the original intention of the sentencers.
	Having praised the virtues of the service, I take this opportunity to draw the attention of the House to the report, Towards Racial Equality, the thematic inspection report of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Probation which was published last week. It is disappointing, to say the least, that the progress which the service made in the 1980s and 1990s in this area has diminished as far as the question of racial equality is concerned. In his foreword to the report, Sir Graham Smith, Her Majesty's Inspector of Probation, said,
	"I was dismayed by many of the findings of which some raised very serious concerns. I was particularly disturbed about the disparities found in a number of areas of practice between the approach to work with white offenders compared to minority ethnic offenders. Although there was a commitment to work with racially motivated offenders, few services had produced any detailed guidance necessary to transfer this into operational reality".
	Sir Graham quite rightly states that racial equality is a "given" and not an optional extra and must be integrated into all aspects of the service's work; that it must challenge and address the behaviour of minority ethnic offenders; and that work must be undertaken to confront and change the racist attitude and behaviour of offenders. He further emphasises that race equality is integral to "what works" and that race equality is synonymous with good practice and is central to the core business of the Probation Service.
	Although the findings of the report are extremely disappointing, its recommendations are strong and timely. As we are moving towards a new style Probation Service, it is important that race equality is built into its very foundation and is seen as an integral part of it. It would therefore be helpful to be given an assurance that the recommendations of this report will be fully implemented and not just be treated as guidance and that racial equality and its promotion will be part of the national standards.
	I now turn to electronic monitoring. As I understand it, this Bill will provide the statutory authority which will allow the imposition of electronic monitoring on any prisoner who is released from a custodial sentence and who is subject to a period of supervision on licence in the community.
	When determining whether or not to release someone on licence, the Parole Board takes into account a number of factors. These include: the nature of the crime; previous convictions; prisoners' previous compliance with supervision (if relevant); behaviour and progress in prison; and the release plan; that is, accommodation, employment and arrangements in the community for supervision. So I presume that this additional provision in the armoury is intended to help with compliance and that its availability is not intended to change the way in which we currently assess risk. It would therefore be helpful to be given some clarity on that matter.
	Finally, I say a few words on measures to deal with drugs. Like others, I applaud the fact that the Government are determined to break the link between drugs and crime and that the drug testing provisions in the Bill are intended as a means of encouraging good behaviour and deterring drug misuse. I would, however, be grateful if the Minister could assure the House that drug testing will be imposed only where it can assist in the effective resettlement of a prisoner on release from custody.
	We all know that drug misuse is a chronic relapsing condition. We also know that drug treatments can make a significant positive impact on those problems, but we have no convincing evidence that testing alone can do so. It is therefore important that a drug abstinence order as a requirement is used in conjunction with drug treatment. We must also recognise that as offenders cannot simply stop misusing illegal drugs altogether, although they may have ceased offending and reduced their drug use, testing in these circumstances can be destructive to the motivation of those who are reducing their drug use but are not managing to stop it completely. It would be helpful to consider those issues.
	It is equally important that drug abstinence orders and drug testing are used in appropriate cases and where necessary with drug treatment. Spending resources on drug testing without making sufficient provision for drug treatment will not be an effective way of utilising them.

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I should like to identify myself with my noble friend Lord Warner in welcoming the Bill and in supporting its general thrust to modernise criminal justice and court services. I particularly support the proposals outlined by the Minister in relation to sentences for those involved in crimes against children and the child protection measures contained within the Bill.
	I wish to address my remarks to one part of the Bill; that is, to the creation of CAFCASS--as my noble friend remarked, it is a somewhat long and clumsy title--and, within that, to the proposals for mediation services which are contained in Part I, Clauses 11 to 17 of the Bill.
	I should declare an interest as a long-standing supporter of and adviser to NCH Action for Children, which is the largest single volume voluntary sector provider of family mediation services, operating as it does seven services providing mediation in large areas of England and Wales. Several services also offer children support services and child contact facilities. Such services are funded in partnership with local probation services. I have drawn on its experience and on the excellent briefing with which National Family Mediation was able to provide me in explaining the importance of its work--of which NCH Action for Children is but a part--and the concerns for which it is seeking reassurance from the Minister.
	As noble Lords will be aware, family mediation is a process in which trained and impartial mediators help those involved in divorce or family breakdown to communicate better and to reach solutions acceptable to them both for the future, and which are the best possible for their children. National Family Mediation is the umbrella body for 65 family mediation services in England and Wales, which currently see more than 6,000 families per year throughout England and Wales, of which around one-third are referred by the courts.
	As the Explanatory Notes to the Bill make clear, CAFCASS will assume the functions currently carried out by the Family Court Welfare Service, the guardian ad litem and reporting officer service and part of the Official Solicitor's Office. It will serve the Family Division of the High Court, county courts and family proceedings courts. It will safeguard and promote the welfare of children before courts dealing with family proceedings, provide advice and information to the courts and families, and, additionally, provide support to families. Everyone should welcome the creation of CAFCASS as the establishment of a consolidated child-centred service to the family courts which can be only beneficial to the well-being of families and children.
	Clause 13 gives CAFCASS the power to make arrangements for other organisations to carry out specific functions on its behalf. It is intended that family mediation will be one such function, and National Family Mediation will be one of the organisations with which CAFCASS will make arrangements under Clause 13.
	Family mediation services were initially established some 20 years ago, many at the initiative of local probation services concerned at the effect of divorce and lengthy legal battles on the children caught in the middle. In recent years, many family mediation services entered into contracts with their local probation service to provide family mediation at the initiative of the courts. This was part of the Home Office's commitment to probation services spending a proportion of their budgets on partnerships with the voluntary sector and undoubtedly contributed to the growth in the early 1990s of local services affiliated to National Family Mediation. More significantly, it enabled many disputes concerning children to be settled without the need for reports to be prepared by the Family Court Welfare Service, thereby saving significant resources for local probation services.
	Many family mediation services now have contracts with the Legal Services Commission (formerly the Legal Aid Board). These provide payment--but, of course, only in respect of those clients who are financially eligible. While these arrangements will continue until the provisions of the Bill are enacted and implemented, transitional arrangements are being set in place so that the change to the new regime will occur as smoothly as possible. It is here that serious concerns arise.
	National Family Mediation is finding that in this period leading up to the transfer of responsibility from the Home Office to CAFCASS, many family mediation services are experiencing severe cuts to their funding from what were Probation Service contracts. A survey of family mediation services carried out in February this year revealed a reduction that has already amounted to £103,000 for the network of services as a whole. This represents 10 per cent of the previous year's probation funding on family mediation work. In the past 12 months, funding by probation partners for NCH Action for Children has been reduced by £36,000. In addition, two services have been moved to what is called "spot funding" arrangements.
	The financial impact of this change in funding patterns has served to undermine NCH Action for Children's ability to sustain its services. Historically, probation contracts have been for three years in order to facilitate service planning, growth and stability. Existing contracts are now for one year, negotiated in the autumn for the following year. Funding for the forthcoming year is, as yet, unknown. In these circumstances, forward planning for voluntary organisations to sustain this service is in jeopardy.
	The reduction has also been exercised in a very inconsistent fashion, with some areas maintaining funding, others reducing it substantially and a small number cutting grants completely. It is most unsatisfactory for the services to find themselves in a position of financial insecurity at a time when they are required to sustain and adapt their provision over the next few years while the new CAFCASS infrastructure is developed.
	Further, this coincides with the LSC plans to enter into long-term contracts with family mediation services based on the present level of funding. If current funding is dropping below the level at which the services are feasible, the financial basis of these long-term contracts will be unrealistically low. Altogether, this state of affairs makes financial planning very difficult indeed.
	It is no exaggeration to say that, if matters are not improved and then stabilised, this invaluable service will be lost to the courts in the interim period before CAFCASS is set up. If this were to happen, the cost of re-establishing the family mediation service would be far higher than that of sustaining the current provision. It must be acknowledged that the Home Office, recognising that there is a problem, issued guidance as recently as 12th June with regard to probation funding, but I fear that this may not be enough.
	In conclusion, my remarks are concerned with how we get from A to B. I seek an assurance that the Government have taken steps to secure partnership funding during the transfer in order that, at the end, we have a service which meets the needs that the Government have recognised in the Bill and which puts children and families at its heart.

The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, the Bill aims to increase confidence in the Probation Service and in non-custodial sentences; to unify and make consistent the three similar, though separately managed, services for the welfare of children within our court system; and to protect children from the appalling abuse from which many have previously suffered. It also purposes to reduce truancy, which greatly decreases the life opportunities of young people, puts children at risk of sexual exploitation and drug addiction and increases the instances of vandalism, public intimidation and crime. These are laudable goals. I share the concern of many noble Lords as to whether the Government have chosen the right means to deliver them.
	I shall concentrate, however, on two areas of concern arising from my experience of working with young people. Is the Lord Chancellor's Department the office in which to place the children and family court advisory and support service? As I am sure we all agree, the Government were absolutely right to make the first priority of the new service the well-being of the child. Those who already serve children and families in the courts have a tremendously challenging job--and the guardians ad litem, the court reporting officers and the children's section of the Official Solicitor's Office have a high reputation for meeting that challenge.
	Last week I spoke to a former child's advocate. She had moved from advocacy into research because she had not been properly supported. She had asked her employer, a charity, not to assign her to families with a history of violence towards women. In fact she was asked to interview a man whom she later learnt not only had such a history but was known particularly to hate articulate women in positions of authority, such as herself. I give this example to illustrate what can happen when a similar service to the one described is overstretched and to show the degree of personal danger that may be involved.
	The Lord Chancellor's Department is of course greatly respected by all but it is far smaller than the Home Office. Can the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General reassure the House that the voice of the Lord Chancellor's Department will be strong enough to obtain the funding necessary to maintain a high quality, well-supported court welfare service? It would be a great step backwards if staff were to feel under-resourced in the future and were to leave the service for their own protection.
	We have the highest divorce rate in Europe and we can anticipate a rising incidence of family breakdown. The court is seldom a good place to solve family disputes. As Judge Thorpe recently intimated, most families might do better seeking counselling and therapy rather than legal redress, or indeed the kind of family mediation to which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, alluded. When a couple fall out they need to be helped to recognise their new role as parents pure and simple. In that context, is it helpful to bring CAFCASS into the purlieu of the Lord Chancellor's Department? In communicating to parents that family disputes are better settled out of court, would it not be better for the service to go to the Home Office or even to the Department of Health?
	As the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, went to great lengths to describe, the Bill makes welcome proposals to prevent unsuitable people from working with children. I beg the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General, as he considers these measures and the regulations pertaining to them, to consider the need to encourage people, particularly young people and students, to consider voluntary work with children. I urge that as someone whose interest in children and families was greatly encouraged by my first experience of service in the community with children 15 years ago.
	A survey for the National Centre for Student Volunteers found that 75 per cent of former student volunteers found work in the area of their community service and that the career of 40 per cent of them was completely unrelated to their choice of academic study. Clearly then voluntary work is an important means for students and young people to find their vocation. The most important protection for children is to have staff for whom childcare is a calling. Will the Minister undertake to do all in his power to integrate the new protections that he is providing under the Bill into a system which allows the absolute minimum delay in the processing of police checks? Young people have many demands on their time. There are more lucrative careers than the care of other people's children. It is vital that young people can taste the rewards of such work; to see it not as a last option but as a most fulfilling employment.
	Such experience can also be the opportunity to know first-hand the children on society's margins, be they the children of the state, the children of sink housing estates or mentally or physically disabled young people. So this knowledge is immensely valuable. I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General can offer reassurance on that point.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, there are a number of matters in the Bill which we on these Benches must welcome. The extension of electronic tagging, due to the developments in technology, will indeed make it possible for offenders not merely to be kept within their own homes but to be prevented from making a nuisance of themselves elsewhere. I am glad to see those provisions in the Bill.
	Similarly, the family court advisory service has been long awaited and is welcome. However, I share the reservations of my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury about an advocate of that service also appearing as a witness in the same case. One wonders where the interests of the child will be in such circumstances.
	The provisions for the protection of children are extremely welcome. Those who come from north-east Wales, such as the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General, cannot have anything other than a great deal of sympathy for any measure which prevents sex offenders having any contact with children. My only reservation about it is that we have as a society demonised sex offenders. They comprise a very broad category of people, from the fumbling adolescent who commits an indecent assault to the persons who committed the atrocities in Bryn Estyn and elsewhere in North Wales. The provisions in the Bill are welcome.
	It is when one turns to other aspects of the Bill that reservations set in. As I listened to noble Lords today, I was musing about the punishments that used to be inflicted by our courts; how people would be put to death by hanging; how they would be transported; how they would be imprisoned with hard labour. People would be flogged and whipped. I recall my father, who was a policeman, telling me how deeply upsetting it was for the station sergeant who had in cold blood to whip youngsters pursuant to a court order.
	We moved away from that. We developed alternative methods of dealing with young people. We realised as a society that many of the faults that we see in youngsters really reflect faults in a wider society for which we, together, are responsible. We adopted probation. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, referred to probation officers acting from a strong ethical basis. That is the ethos of the Probation Service. With that was coupled the judicial discretion--a discretion to which the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, referred--for magistrates and judges to impose sentences commensurate with the offence and commensurate with the degree of responsibility of the offender before the court. Probation has been part of the sentencing of the courts, as have, in the past 25 years, community service orders.
	It may surprise those on the Government Benches when I say that probation in this country has been an overwhelming success. It is a system which has been developed. Anyone who has contact with the criminal justice system--as I, declaring an interest, have--knows that many youngsters who once went astray are today leading perfectly normal lives with families, jobs and careers, thanks to the intervention of the friendly and caring probation officer who gave them help at a very difficult time in their lives. Now, however, the Government call this, to use the words of the Minister, "a soft and ineffective option". Contrary to all the success of the Probation Service, which the Government ritually and frequently commend, it is now "a soft and ineffective option". The change was spelt out by Mr Paul Boateng in Standing Committee G when the Bill was going through another place. He said:
	"We are moving away from a social work-type befriending model, and no one should be under any illusions about that. ... we intend to focus the National Probation Service on law enforcement".--[Official Report, Commons Standing Committee G, 4/4/00; col. 33.]
	Mr Boateng also said, at col. 36:
	"No one should be under any illusions about the nature of the change and of the culture shift that we expect: it is a philosophical change".
	When the noble Lord, Lord Warner, refers to the philosophy that lies behind the opinions expressed from these Benches and from those of the Official Opposition, he should appreciate that the "philosophical words" have come from a Government Minister in another place. It is the philosophy of the Government that has been changed quite deliberately.
	I agree entirely with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, when he referred to "gesture politics". We have seen the politics of gesture exercised by the Prime Minister. Indeed, we have seen electioneering as we approach another general election. Both sides have been vying with each other to prove how "tough" they can be--that word was used three times by the Minister during his opening remarks on the Bill.
	However, I think it would be a great deal more "tough" for the Government to demonstrate leadership by going against a press commentary that seeks to whip up public opinion and to change that climate of opinion so that people come to realise that, for the community and for individuals within the community, the greatest safeguards against crime are rehabilitation and reform. The best way to prevent crime is not to lock people away for lengthy periods--they will eventually come out of prison, so the problem is merely pushed back--but to use such time during which people may have their liberty taken away by doing something positive; namely, by using the resources of the state to educate and train those who have offended.

Lord Warner: My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that difficulties may be encountered in trying to alter public attitudes towards crime when we are faced with the kind of situation I outlined in my contribution? Nine out of 10 people sentenced to community service orders breach those orders not only once or twice, but three times. With such high levels of breach, it will be difficult to persuade the public that action has been taken and that changes will be made.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. However, I should like to be able to examine the workload for each probation officer, as well as that for prison officers who need to contend with 65,000 or more prisoners housed in buildings that were designed to accommodate far fewer people. The problem is that the resources are going in the wrong direction. As I said, I should like to see the Government demonstrate leadership and persuade the people of this country that rehabilitation and reform are the only way to proceed.
	As regards the structure of the new national probation service, I concur with the criticisms made by my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury. How will local strategies initiated by local people be developed? The Minister used those words to describe the new regime. However, the Home Secretary will appoint the chief officer, who may be at odds with the local board. It is inevitable that clashes and difficulties will emerge from that kind of system. What is the need for such centralised control? We have heard the word "fragmentation" used in this context. According to the Government, the Probation Service today is "fragmented". However, that reflects the philosophy of Edward I when he set out to conquer Wales and Scotland. He felt that the United Kingdom was "fragmented". I do not believe that there is any need to centralise. I strongly support local autonomy and putting responsibility into the hands of local boards to carry out what they believe to be appropriate and correct for the people they know in the areas they know.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, referred to the imposition of a prison sentence as once being considered the decision of last resort. Now, imprisonment is clearly the decision of first resort. I believe that we are following the American path here. More than 2 million people are currently imprisoned in that country, compared with 65,000 in this country.
	I turn to the provisions dealing with drug abuse. My noble friend Lord Dholakia referred to "drug-ridden prisons". That comment brought to mind a person I represented in a manslaughter case. He was a heroin addict. It was alleged that he had injected his girlfriend with heroin. I asked him what it was like to be an addict, to be imprisoned and thus without access to heroin. He said, "There is no problem at all. It is easier to get hold of heroin inside prison than it is to get it outside". That is a chilling thought upon which noble Lords should reflect. We are sending people to drug-ridden prisons rather than maintaining them in the community where they can keep their jobs and maintain their responsibilities to their families and to the community.
	It has been suggested that drug abstinence orders should be issued. That sounds all well and good, but they will be quite useless unless resources are made available for treatment. The Minister has acknowledged that there is a shortage of adequate drug treatment facilities in this country. As the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, pointed out, a drug addict cannot stop taking drugs. If a drug abstention order is issued without support, it will be bound to fail. What will happen then? The offender will come before the court and he will then be sent to prison--to a drug-ridden prison where it is easier to acquire heroin than it is on the outside. Not only that, but by executive diktat issued under other legislation that we debated last week, the Government would like to see such an offender and his family lose their entitlement to benefits under our social security system.
	Prison has been recommended not only for drug addicts, but also for parents. Under the new proposals, parents who are incapable of getting their children to school in the morning will go to prison for three months. What that will do to benefit the child, I do not know. As the noble Baroness, Lady David, pointed out, such a child will be taken into care. Alternatively, that child will be thrown out of the family home. I have had to deal with people who have been thrown out of their homes by their parents in similar circumstances.
	It is claimed that these proposals are part and parcel of the youth justice reforms. However, to echo the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, perhaps I may ask how many parenting orders have been made. How many curfews for 10 year-olds have been imposed? How many anti-social behaviour orders have been issued? These are gimmicks that have been tried out by the Home Office, no doubt supported by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, when he was a Home Office special adviser. All those ideas have failed to make any significant impact. In the mean time, fewer policemen are patrolling the streets and violent crime is rising. Despite that, even more gimmicks are being introduced by the Prime Minister without the benefit of any consultation. Over the weekend I was travelling extensively and I heard overwhelming laughter up and down the country at the suggestion that policemen should drag drunken louts to cashpoints to relieve them of £100.
	The Government say that these measures are being tried in order to protect victims. Victims are to be at the heart of the process and at the heart of the Government's efforts. However, I shall take the words of the Government seriously only when they restore the link between common law damages and criminal injuries compensation paid to the victims of violent crime. The tariff system was introduced by Michael Howard, the then Conservative Home Secretary, after it was rejected as an illegal move in the courts and after it was attacked in this House by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner. The then Shadow Home Secretary, Mr Tony Blair, opposed it bitterly in another place. It was opposed by the current Home Secretary, Mr Jack Straw. But, after three years, what have the Government done to restore justice to victims? Absolutely nothing.
	As I have said, parts of the Bill are to be welcomed, but much needs to be done to remove what I regard as positive excrescences from its content.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for setting out the details of the Bill. At the outset, I declare an interest as president of the Association of Probation Managers. Perhaps I may say also to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, how much I look forward to working with him over the coming weeks. I have been living under a misapprehension about the workload of the Attorney-General. The noble and learned Lord graces this House almost daily with his presence, from which we all benefit, and he takes a close interest in much of the business taken on the Floor of the House. Now, as previously, the noble and learned Lord is helping out his noble friend Lord Bassam, and for that we are grateful.
	Like so many organisations and respondents to the consultation that has taken place, we support some measures in the Bill. However, like other noble Lords, we find that many questions are begged and much clarification is required. Subject to the will of the House, I hope that noble Lords will accept some revision of the Bill during its passage through this House. Where measures in the Bill are designed to tackle crime and where they are deemed effective and enforceable, they will have our support. However, before referring to specific aspects of the Bill, I want to press the Minister on two other, related matters.
	When pressed on why the Government had been more proactive when dealing with football hooligans who travelled to watch Euro 2000 football matches, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, lost no opportunity to blame Conservative Back-Benchers in another place for preventing a Private Member's Bill becoming law. The details of the accusation are debatable, but that is not my point. In answer to a Question in this House, the noble Lord said for the record that, had the measure to remove passports from known hooligans to prevent them travelling overseas been on the statute book, the Government would have used it.
	The Government have entered their fourth year in office. If the Home Secretary had really wanted such a measure, the Government had only to include it in one of the many Home Office Bills that have passed through both Houses over the past three years; or the Home Secretary could have taken over the Private Member's Bill, which would have ensured its passage on to the statute book. Is it the Government's intention to bring forward an amendment to this Bill? If not, I am confident that such an amendment will be tabled, probably in Committee.
	Secondly, it can hardly have gone unnoticed that the Prime Minister has once again chosen to discuss policy not in Parliament, not even in this country, but in Germany. This time, specific measures to deal with drunken and/or drugged hooligans and their behaviour on our streets are being contemplated, aloud, and before any consultation with interested parties. It is suggested that individuals are forcibly taken to the nearest appropriate cashpoint to withdraw £100--that is, if they do not have a spare £100 in their pocket.
	There are so many questions that one must ask about the practical implementation of such a measure. Hooligans usually operate in groups. Who should be arrested--all of them? Some may, some may not, have the ability to pay. Some may respond without resistance; some may not. Who will determine the level of behaviour that would trigger direct punishment by the police? Who will resolve on-the-spot disputes about who is displaying the offensive behaviour? What is the policeman expected to do with the cash when he has collected it? Most significantly, where are the numbers of policemen or police women who can afford to be distracted from their duties to deal with the time-consuming business of marching one or more drunken hooligans to the bank? How would accountability for such direct punishment be dealt with? Will the Minister tell the House whether such a measure is likely to be added to the Bill, or what the next steps are likely to be?
	Not only is the Bill being discussed against the background of much hand-wringing within the Home Office; it also coincides with a rise in street crime and a serious fall in the number of police officers. In London, the situation is very serious indeed. The Home Secretary has frequently commented that crime doubled under the previous government. What the Home Secretary conveniently does not say is that crime rose during the whole of that time throughout the western world. However, under the previous government, the tide was turned: the number of policemen was expanded by 16,000, and crime fell in each of the last four years of the previous government's term of office. However, since 1997, police numbers have declined and crime is increasing. I understand that we may learn this week that street crime continues to rise. Forgive my cynicism, but I cannot help feeling that yet another No. 10 summit, following the Prime Minister's visit to Germany, and the efforts of the spin doctors have more to do with masking a growing crisis.
	The creation of a national probation service and a free-standing children and family court advisory and support service are to be welcomed, although there will be matters of detail to be explored in Committee and on Report. I want at this stage to pledge my support--and to express my long-standing support--for the Probation Service. My complaint about the Probation Service when I was responsible for it was that those in the service were their own worst enemies. They did a thunderingly good job, and given the kind of people with whom they had to deal one would not have wanted to be in their place. Sadly, they did not stand back sufficiently to tell the world about what they were doing. I believe that that has changed--it was certainly changing before I left office. More and more, the service was inviting the public in, talking with the public, and displaying the way in which it was working and how effective its services were.
	Clause 15 allows staff of the family courts advisory service to conduct litigation in all courts with rights of audience. Clause 16 allows for CAFCASS officers to act as witnesses. That has been referred to in the debate. There is huge concern about the proposal, in terms of non-lawyers representing children facing legal representation for other parties as well as in terms of conflict of interest, where an officer acting as advocate for the child is then questioned as a witness. The interests of the child should be safeguarded; however, I am not sure that the Bill as drafted does so. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will be able to clarify, and if possible allay, our concerns. If not, we shall return to this issue.
	There is also concern over paragraph 1(5) of Schedule 1 in regard to the position of the Chief Probation Officer nationally and the local chief officers. They cannot serve two masters. If they are not employed by the boards and they are accountable to the Home Office as set out in the Bill, local accountability and line management will be affected and I am afraid that confusion will reign. I hope that the Minister will consider amendments on this issue.
	As the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, said, "local boards" is a frightful name. It does nothing to convey the work of the Probation Service at a local level. I hope that it will be changed--and I hope that it does not give way to the acronym "LOBs"!
	The ownership and management of property as proposed, based on a much-criticised report, is also causing concern. The boards, if they are to be effective, should have control over the staff, finances and premises. To regard the control and management of property as a distraction, as the Home Office does, is to misunderstand and to confuse completely the interaction between procurement and the use of buildings with the work of the service on the ground as a justice agency managing difficult and potentially dangerous people. Special factors, such as group workrooms, reporting centres, the isolation of difficult and dangerous people, the need for security systems, and the juxtaposition of premises to neighbours, plus the all-important relationship to landlords, are crucial. Local input, control and ownership of decisions are essential. I hope that the Government will rethink this matter and that they will take note of the strong case put by the Central Probation Council.
	There are many questions to be addressed on the financial arrangements. First, when additional powers are conferred on the Probation Service, it must be given the resources to deliver that service effectively. Also, local authorities presently have borrowing powers on behalf of the Probation Service. Is the Minister able to tell us whether, when that arrangement ends, borrowing powers will be extended to the boards? What flexibility and powers will boards have to buy and sell services from and to other bodies; for example, partnership organisations, and the voluntary, statutory or commercial sectors? These are all daily activities for the Probation Service. We shall consider the tabling of amendments on these and other related issues. The stability of the service as a result of these changes is important. Therefore, any further reorganisation, whether of the service as a whole or the redrawing of boundaries, should be subject to primary legislation.
	We shall examine the very considerable central control and powers of patronage proposed for the Secretary of State. I note that in another place Mr Paul Boateng said that any move to alter or restrict these powers,
	"would constitute an undue fettering of the Secretary of State's discretion".--[Official Report, Commons Standing Committee G, 11/4/00; col. 83.]
	I suggest to the right honourable gentleman that that is for Parliament to decide.
	I return to family court issues. The National Family Mediation Service, which was touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, seeks an assurance that the Government will secure partnership funding during the transfer of assets from the Home Office to CAFCASS. It is also concerned to know how funding is to be assessed to ensure that there are adequate resources for referred family mediation in each conurbation and how the funds are to be allocated.
	We welcome the Government's acceptance of our proposal to include assault occasioning actual bodily harm in the list of qualifying offences in Schedule 4. I also look forward to the Government fulfilling their promise to my honourable friends in another place to include amendments which will increase the maximum sentences for child pornography offences. We shall want to consider further the arrangements for disqualification orders. In particular, we remain concerned that they are be used only for criminals who are sentenced to 12 months or more. Your Lordships will be aware of the high profile case of the singer Paul Gadd, better known as Gary Glitter. Despite being in possession of thousands of sickening images of children, he received a sentence of just four months and so would not have been eligible for a disqualification order. The arbitrary 12-month cut-off includes no discretion for judges to impose disqualification orders on those sentenced to less than that. As my honourable friends said in another place, it might be better if such a discretion was on the face of the Bill.
	We also believe that the list of offences in Schedule 4 should include dealing drugs to children. We shall want to look further at the range of occupations from which offenders will be disqualified. Is the Minister in a position to say anything about plans to merge, or not to merge (as the case may be), the inspectorates of prisons and of probation? Could the idea have anything to do with the removal of Sir David Ramsbotham, the current Chief Inspector of Prisons? Does the Minister accept that the two services are sufficiently important and distinct to warrant separate inspectorates and that consideration should be given to an independent inspectorate for probation?
	As was made clear in another place, the Opposition support the Government's proposals on the drug testing of criminal suspects but are concerned that they may not go far enough. The other place debated at length the issue of testing for class B as well as class A drugs. Your Lordships will doubtless want to explore that issue in Committee.
	Another concern is that the list of trigger offences in Schedule 5 is too narrowly drawn. We accept that drugs are a major factor in property crime, but they can also play a part in violent crime. In another place my right honourable friend Ann Widdecombe referred to the case of Christopher Tilling who was gaoled for 12 years for manslaughter after setting fire to a house and killing a seven year-old child in return for £200 to feed his drug habit. If the Government are to break the link, as they put it, between drug habits and crime--we do not dispute that aim--they should look at extending the mandatory testing provision to all serious crime, not just acquisitive crime.
	The Government amended the Bill in another place to conform with the decision of the European Court of Human Rights in the case of Thompson and Venables. We continue to grieve for the family over the murder of their small son Jamie. The nation felt a sense of revulsion at such a dreadful crime, the effects of which are still felt after a decade. However, we remain concerned about Clause 56 which was not part of those changes. The Government will need to provide an unequivocal commitment that young offenders aged between 18 and 20 will not be dumped with older, hardened criminals in adult prisons. We shall seek to make clear the Government's intentions in this vital area of penal policy.
	In a debate in this House on 10th April the Minister agreed (at col. 9) with my right honourable friend Michael Howard that prison worked. However, that contrasts with the early release scheme introduced in the Crime and Disorder Act. More than 2,000 criminals have now been released before the half-way point of their sentence. We welcome the belated change in Clause 60 to exclude sex offenders from that scheme, which was called for two years ago, but we disagree with the fundamental objective of the scheme which is to give convicted criminals a get-out-of-gaol-free card. Those sentenced to six months are being released in six weeks. Thousands of robbers, burglars, violent criminals and drug dealers are being granted the privilege of special early release. How can it be honest, transparent or just for criminals convicted of some of the most serious crimes, including manslaughter and attempted murder, to serve less than half the sentence handed down by the judge? We shall table a number of amendments in Committee. Your Lordships should be in no doubt about the strength of the Opposition's feelings on this matter. On return to office we have pledged to abolish the early release scheme.
	Turning to Clauses 38 to 40, we believe that the renaming of the community orders is change for the sake of change. Much has already been said on that matter. As to Clause 41 which is concerned with exclusion orders, can the Minister explain to the House whether the tagging and tracking equipment is sufficiently developed and technically robust to be used on offenders who are forbidden to enter a specified area?
	As to Clause 42, can the Minister tell the House whether rehabilitative treatment will be a condition of a drug abstinence order? That point was made by many noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, in an excellent speech. Without some form of assistance to break the habit of drug taking, the failure rate is certain to be even higher.
	I turn next to Clause 48(4) on page 33. Referring to paragraph (b), can the noble and learned Lord clarify, by giving examples, what constitute "exceptional circumstances"? If an additional 25,000 people go to prison, which I understand is the estimate of the Home Office, is that cost included in the financial appraisal? If so, I have not been able to detect it.
	As to paragraph 18 of Schedule 1, will the Minister consider the strengthening of the complaints procedure?
	I assume that the rationale for the increase in fines for failure to attend school is to introduce the penalty of custody, as was suggested by my noble friend Lady Seccombe. Hardly anyone--I believe no one--has been fined the maximum of £1,000. Therefore, increasing the penalty will only increase the likelihood of a breach, which will then give rise to an increase in custodial sentences. Is the total cost of that taken into account, and is it the most effective way to deal with these mothers?
	There is not time for me to speak in more detail about breaches of community sentences which will attract custodial sentences. However, as suggested by the Association of Chief Probation Officers, if there was greater certainty that a return to court would follow every breach, that a hearing would take place without delay, that appropriate penalties, including prison and curfew orders, would be imposed and that every breach would attract a penalty, the public would be better protected, and repeat breaches would probably be reduced. It is not just the Probation Service that is at fault here. I am aware that conscientious probation officers who tried to carry out that level of enforcement have taken young people back to the court and the magistrates' response has been, "Are you saying that you have brought this young person before us simply because he arrived home last night one hour late? Don't waste our time". If the Probation Service is to do its work, it must be supported by the courts as well.
	The approximate cost set out in the financial memorandum is £457 million. However, I suggest that, within that, the cost to the Probation Service of these additional responsibilities is underestimated. As to the estimate of £100,000 for the protection of children measures referred to in paragraph 154 of the Explanatory Notes, that is extremely optimistic. It would just about pay for one year for the services of Alastair Campbell in No. 10; and that does not include his on-costs.
	The assumption of a 50 per cent deterrent factor as a result of imprisonment for breach of a community sentence order is too optimistic. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. That figure has been built into the savings factor. According to paragraph 164, all the extra funding, another £0.5 billion, is to come from the departmental budget. Is the noble and learned Lord able to say whether it is new money; or is to be taken from the budget? If so, which services will forgo funding as a result of the funding of these measures?
	Finally, the report of the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee recommends that powers in Clauses 41, 42, 45 and 46, which allow for amendment of the Bill to increase the severity of sentencing, should be omitted. I agree. For such serious changes, primary legislation is the appropriate vehicle. If the Government do not heed this advice--I believe that the House will display its usual concern--it would be a break with the convention of this House not to accede to the considered deliberations and advice of that committee, the work of which is valued greatly by your Lordships.
	As has been said by so many, the new national probation service and the separate child court welfare service are to be welcomed. However, the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, described well the degree to which the Bill is centrally controlled and centrally driven, especially in relation to the national probation service. I agree. That has come to be the hallmark of the Government; Bill after Bill passing through this House is testimony to that. I predict that many days will be spent revising and improving the Bill. I look forward greatly to being back on Home Office territory.

Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I am grateful for the thoughtful tone of the debate. It was set at the outset, if I may say so respectfully, by the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham.
	A number of noble Lords have referred to the value of the Probation Service. I hope that in the past I have shown myself to be as powerful a supporter of its good work as the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham. I share one thing at least in common with the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch: we both have responsibility for probation and prisons. When one works in that field, one cannot but feel a sense of humility about the work that is done.
	I should say immediately that my noble friend Lord Bassam did not say that community sentences were a soft and ineffective option. He said that they had often been regarded as such; and perception is sometimes important. It is also true, unfortunately, that the outcomes in different probation areas have been patchy. As my noble friend Lord Warner pointed out, in some areas breach after breach goes without sanction. In other areas the outcome is much better.
	Reference was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, to the two inspectors, Sir Graham Smith and Sir David Ramsbotham. Sir Graham Smith was the first to insist that national standards should be set and adhered to. He was the pioneer in the document Evidence-based practice, and had the foresight to say that that document would be valuable for three years and we must then scrutinise it again. I have always said that Sir David and Sir Graham were admirable public servants. I have said that on every public occasion when Sir David has been present with me on the platform. I always encouraged him to be an irritant, although I never found him irritating. It seems to me that the purpose of an inspector is to be an irritant. I say this about both of them. They are notable public servants and both had their terms extended: Sir Graham when I was probation Minister and, shortly after I left--there is no necessary connection--Sir David's term was similarly extended. So any ill-informed comment in the press is grossly unfair to both those public servants, who have done, in my opinion, excellent work.
	On these occasions I am always reminded of the gloomy baggage that invests the word "but". Almost all of your Lordships have said that this is quite a good Bill--and then I wait for the inevitable "but". Most noble Lords have said that it has much excellent quality. I should like to follow what I have sought to do in the past. If amendments are consistent with the underlying philosophy and capable of improving the Bill in that context, I am more than happy to approach these matters with an open mind. My noble friends Lord Bach and Lord Bassam and I are perfectly happy to have meetings on any convenient occasion to discuss specific worries or queries that any of your Lordships has. We want to make the Bill as good as possible.
	Many questions have been raised. Some are quite deep. I should like to give a good deal of thought to the questions and consider answers in correspondence in due time. Whichever noble Lord I reply to, I shall ensure that a copy is sent from the Home Office (I intrude somewhat into the territory of my noble friend Lord Bassam) to all noble Lords who have spoken; and copies will be placed in the Library of the House. However, I shall do my best to deal with particular aspects.
	No title can be given to any new organisation which is free of possible misunderstanding. As your Lordships constantly referred to the children and family court advisory and support service, I reminded myself that it is spelt CAFCASS and not "Kafka's". (I felt that I should say that because someone is bound to pick it up!) CAFCASS offers a substantial opportunity for the future. A number of noble Lords referred to it as being a possibly enormous significant advance.
	My noble friend Lady Thornton asked about start-up costs. The funding for those has been identified. The transfer of funds for the new service will reflect the historical budgetary spend by the three amalgamating services. Future funding--I say this more generally about other questions put by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch--will depend on the outcome of the current government spending review and I cannot pre-judge that, although I think that it has been fairly widely published in the newspapers that announcements are imminent this month or early next. I cannot go beyond that at this stage.
	The Lord Chancellor sees CAFCASS as critically important in looking after the interests of children. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked the Lord Chancellor was likely to be a doughty fighter for necessary funding. All I can say, without breaching confidences, is that at any funding discussion between colleagues which I have attended with the Lord Chancellor and the Home Secretary, the Lord Chancellor has normally been successful. If I were a betting man (which I am not) and I had a spare £5 (which I have not) I would place it on the Lord Chancellor.
	One of the questions, raised initially by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, was the apparent tension between Clauses 15 and 16 in the advocacy rights of a non-legally qualified employee of CAFCASS and the possibility of cross-examination. Clause 16 makes plain that cross-examination cannot be available simply because the advocate is acting as advocate by virtue of Clause 15. I hope that that is a reassurance.
	A question was raised about a possible tension between the interests and the desires of the child. Many of us, being parents, have frequently understood that there may be a tension between the views of the child and his or her best interests. That is commonplace in the minds of professionals who have to deal with children. One cannot say dogmatically that the child's views must always be paramount because it is part of the wider context of evidence upon which one draws to see where the best interests of the child lie. We are determined that these two apparent tensions can be reconciled; and the professionalism of the CAFCASS will have great input into, I hope, successful outcomes.
	A number of noble Lords referred to the training of CAFCASS staff. The CAFCASS project team is working at present. It is seeking the advice of organisations representing the judiciary, the legal profession, voluntary agencies and court users. CAFCASS will work within national standards and a national training programme and will have a system of independent, regular inspection.
	That comment about taking the view of the judiciary brings me conveniently to a question raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner. The Home Secretary is in continuing, current correspondence with the Lord Chief Justice. It would not be appropriate for me to read out the correspondence at this stage without having the express permission of the Lord Chief Justice, but I can say that in the Home Secretary's last letter, dated 30th June--which is why I am able to say that it is current correspondence--his manuscript note at the bottom says:
	"I am of course happy to discuss this with you further if you or [Lord Justice] Rose continue to have concern".
	Some of the concerns expressed relate to Clause 48, which I come to immediately. Clause 48 has been misconstrued. Clause 48(3) introduces Section 2A and has a filter, to which I think none of your Lordships referred. It states:
	"Sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) below apply if the responsible officer is of the opinion that a person aged 18 or over...has failed"--
	and I underline these words--
	"without reasonable excuse to comply with any of the requirements of an order".
	The dual filter is there. It can only refer to someone over the age of 18 years and the responsible officer has to come to the informed conclusion that it is a failure without reasonable excuse. A warning is then given. New Section 2A(5) states:
	"A warning under this paragraph must--(a) describe the circumstances of the failure".
	Therefore the offender is in no doubt. It has to state that the failure is unacceptable and it has to say that, within the next six or, as the case may be, 12 months, "if you fail again, you will be liable to be brought before a court".
	I respectfully suggest that that is not unreasonable, unless the public is to continue to believe and to hold the perception--to which my noble friend Lord Bassam referred--that this is soft and ineffective. One therefore has to have a breach or a failure without reasonable excuse; the offender has to be over 18; the warning has to be given; then back to court where, unless there are exceptional circumstances, imprisonment must be ordered. Not for three months, however. One has to look at the words. The term is, "not exceeding three months". There will not be 25,000 extra persons in prison at any one time. I respectfully suggest that it pays to read Clause 48 with care before coming to alarmist conclusions.
	Perhaps I may turn to the observations of my noble friend Lady Stern on Clause 2. I think I may call her my noble friend because we almost always agree and, when we disagree, it is normally because she is wrong. I am now ducking!
	What Clause 2 says is wholly unexceptionable and indeed to be commended:
	"This section applies to--
	(a) the functions of the Secretary of State under this Chapter;
	(b) the functions of local boards, and officers of local boards, under this Act or any other enactment".
	What is an officer of a local board? That is found in Clause 4(4) which states that,
	"any member of the staff of a local board appointed to exercise the functions of an officer of the board, and
	(b) any other individual exercising functions of an officer of a local board".
	What must they do? In Clause 2, when they are carrying out their work, either as Secretary of State or functions discharged under him, or when they are discharging the functions of local boards, they must do three things. That is hardly surprising or objectionable. Clause 2 continues:
	"In exercising those functions the person concerned must have regard to the following aims--
	(a) the protection of the public;
	(b) the reduction of re-offending;
	(c) the proper punishment of offenders".
	I find nothing objectionable or strange there at all--particularly as I agree with the distinct sub-text of my noble friend Lady Stern and indeed what was said by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Dholakia. In some circumstances the protection of the public and the reduction of reoffending may depend on the rehabilitation of offenders; but not in all circumstances.
	This Bill is not the first on the agenda set out by the Home Secretary. It is building on the work of the Crime and Disorder Act. I paraphrase the philosophical underpinning of that Act in this way. The purpose here is to intervene early; not as was foolishly and almost childishly described in some newspapers as the Home Secretary wanting to send children to prison at the age of 12. It is to stop them falling into crime so that they do not become persistent offenders at the ages of 17, 22, 25, 36, 47--until they mature or just give up committing crime.
	Another purpose is to make community sentences not only effective but apparently effective. They are sentences. They are necessary consequences of crime having been committed. It does no one any favours, least of all the young offenders, for them to think that they can breach, and breach, and breach again.
	I did not know what my learned friend Lord Warner was going to say, but if what he describes is correct--and we all know it to be correct--letting a young offender offend, breach and breach again, for half a dozen times without an effective sanction, is actually doing them a serious harm. It is also doing the public a serious harm.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, urged us not to treat this as a political football, and I hope that I am not doing so. With the best will in the world, however, I cannot see that a discussion of football hooligans and cash points is within the ambit of this Bill. In answer to the question as to whether it is to be amended in that connection, I do not believe that it is.
	The typical characteristics of the young offender are: coming from a home which is dysfunctional; with a life which is not ordered; without education; without employment; and, significantly, some abuse of drugs or alcohol. The belief we have--perhaps shared by many of your Lordships--is that the vital component which is lacking is order: the order which comes from school, from education, from discipline. We do not do very well at the moment. We insist that children are educated from the age of four to 16, at colossal expense. Those of your Lordships who have visited prisons will know that two-thirds of the young men in prison cannot read and write sufficiently well even to complete a job application.
	This is a determined strategy. It will not please everyone. As I have said on earlier occasions, it is a matter of perfect indifference to me as to whether a person is a lawyer or whether they live in Hampstead. In the past I have pleaded guilty to the first charge but never to the second. I would rather go to the message, however, and not to the messenger.
	I believe that what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, said, echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is right: we ought not to make a political football of these matters. It may of course be possible to improve the Bill. I repeat--and hope that it will be accepted--that if there are amendments by way of improvement, consistent with the general philosophy, we will look to them.
	The areas which it seems to me have been commended by your Lordships in this Bill are CAFCASS--with general if not with perfect applause--and the area which deals with children. I ought to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, that sitting as a justice of the peace obviously retards the ageing process. I was amazed to hear her say that she had had a letter requiring her no longer to sit!
	Some queries are raised as to whether Clause 48 is too strict or rigorous. I do not think that it is. After all, a community sentence, as described by my noble friends Lord Bassam and Lord Warner, in a sense is an alternative to imprisonment. If it is to be an alternative, it has to be a serious alternative. It is not to be regarded as not a sanction by way of punishment. I know the judicial argument, expressed in its purity by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, that this is in some way interfering with the independence of the judiciary. I fundamentally disagree. It is taking away some of their power, but it does not affect their independence as judges. We have mandatory sentences and I agree that they are limited. Here one has a parenthesis by way of escape in Clause 48.
	There is no doubt that we shall debate these matters at some length. I believe that that is appropriate because--and I say so without disrespect--it is what your Lordships do best. There is a better quality of informed debate in this House than in some other places--and of course I am not thinking of the House of Commons.
	A number of questions were asked about the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Select Committee, in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and they were reflected in subsequent speeches. The Select Committee said that it was not happy with the measure but that if it is in the Bill it should be by way of affirmative resolution procedure. We have examined the issue and we believe that the Select Committee is right; the powers should be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. We shall table amendments to the Bill so that the alteration of maximum and minimum periods of community orders are subject to the scrutiny of this House through the affirmative resolution procedure. I hope that your Lordships will accept that as an appropriate and prudent response to the questions which were raised in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia.
	Furthermore, we considered that we should go further. We intend to extend the principle by amending the Criminal Justice Act 1998 so that changes to the period relating to curfew orders are also subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. If one makes the first change, one should go further and make the second. There are precedents for the alternative. We have thought about the issue carefully and I was personally grateful for the courtesy of the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, in indicating the preliminary view of the committee. I hope that your Lordships will consider that to be a decent response to those issues.
	Many other questions were raised today. As I said at the outset, I want to give thought to some of the deeper ones and undertake to send the letters quickly. Fine questions as to finance may take some research. However, others, such as the borrowing powers, I can answer straightaway: they are specified in the Bill as being subject to the Secretary of State's powers of direction.
	I am conscious that my 20 minutes has run out but perhaps I may make one final comment. As regards local accountability, I recognise that your Lordships' concerns are of worth and validity. However, I submit that they are met in Schedule 1 because paragraph 2(4) on page 46 states:
	"Regulations may make provisions as to their appointment".
	The important provision is paragraph 2(5), which states:
	"Regulations must provide, so far as it is practicable to do so, for the persons appointed to be representative of the local community in the board's area and to live or work (or have lived or worked) in that area".

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving way. Will he accept that a eunuch is a eunuch whether he is local or not?

Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I expect that it would depend on two issues; first, the nature of the eunuch and, secondly, the nature of the area. And I hope that the noble Lord is not making snide references to Hampstead!
	Sometimes one feels that one cannot win on these occasions. We put forward regulations specifying that local people must be represented and then the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, says that that is not sufficient. The measure is made and it recognises the importance of local involvement in the provision of local service. What we will not return to, and what we have set our face against, is local services which have been so patchy that some outcomes have been the object of reproach to all of us and have done a significant disservice to those young people for whom the Probation Service has historically cared so well. I commend the Bill to your Lordships.
	On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Television Licences (Disclosure of Information) Bill

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
	Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.--(Lord McIntosh of Haringey.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.
	House in Committee accordingly.
	[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Lord Elton) in the Chair.]
	Clause 1 [Disclosure of information]:

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: moved Amendment No. 1:
	Page 1, line 6, leave out (", at the request of the BBC,").

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: In moving Amendment No. 1, I want to give a general explanation of the two main objectives underpinning all the amendments standing in my name at the Committee stage. The first objective is to probe the effectiveness of the methods which the Government have chosen to police the system which will give people aged 75 and over the right to have a television licence without paying for it.
	The second objective is to ask questions about what appear to be potential flaws in the operation of that system, especially with regard to the electronic communication of information, and thereby to consider whether improvements should be made to the Bill.
	As I made clear at Second Reading, the Bill will become law; we shall not oppose it. However, we believe that we need to ensure that it works as effectively as possible. I should make clear that all my amendments tabled at the Committee stage are probing.
	I have tabled Amendment No. 1 in order to ask the Government why they adopted this particular system to police the applications for free TV licences. Clause 1 will give the Secretary of State the legal authority to supply social security information of prescribed kinds to the BBC. Subsection (1) states that the Secretary of State may do this,
	"at the request of the BBC".
	However, if the release of information takes place only at the request of the BBC, the following questions should be addressed by the Government. First, does the Bill give authority to the Secretary of State to transfer relevant information wholesale to the BBC as soon as he is in possession of it? What are the costs of doing that? Are there more effective ways of managing all the information? What are the implications for those individuals--few there may be--who do not own TV sets now and never intend to do so?
	Perhaps I may examine those questions briefly in the hope that the Government will be able to answer them today. The first question relates to the practical issues of how the information will be managed. In another place, my honourable friend John Greenway elicited some information from the Government. However, further questions need to be asked. Can the Minister explain how the database will be set up and when and how information will be transferred to it? The answer may seem obvious: you just hand over the database and off you go in setting up the system; but the Notes on Clauses indicate that the BBC will receive an electronic copy of information held on the databases of the DSS and the Northern Ireland Department. At what stage will that electronic copy be sent to the BBC? Will it be at Royal Assent or between that date and 1st November?
	Moreover, after the database has been set up, will the changes in individual circumstances be updated on a weekly, daily or concurrent basis? Will the interface between the system set up by the BBC contractors and the DSS be so compatible that there will be a complete flow of information from the DSS as soon as it receives it? The change in circumstances should be only a new address, a death or the fact that the person has reached the age of 74.
	I have visited the DSS headquarters at Newcastle, which holds national insurance information, and was impressed by the effective work that was done and the dedication in keeping the information accurate and up-to-date. However, I am aware that of necessity there is a time lag in the notification of information to them and the time that it takes to update their systems. Of course, I am also aware that not everyone in the United Kingdom is on the national insurance system and that that system can produce errors. Therefore, how do the Government expect all those issues to be resolved?
	My second question is more brief and concerns the costs of the system. At Second Reading my noble friends Lord Luke and Lady Fookes, who is in her place, asked questions about the costs of setting up and maintaining the system. As they pointed out, the Government's estimates seem to vary considerably. Indeed, in another place the Minister admitted that, as a result of the final structure of the scheme, the updated estimates given by the Government are likely to be higher than their earlier estimates. That seems to imply that the Government have decided on a scheme which is more expensive to operate than others would have been. That is despite the fact that in another place the Government argued that other methods would have been more expensive. There is confusion here and I should be grateful if the Minister could comment on the final costs of the scheme.
	What other schemes were investigated by the Government and why were they found to be wanting? Why was this one the winner in the stakes? Finally, what is the effect of the Bill on people who do not own a TV or, indeed, on those who perhaps have a TV but cannot get a signal? There are many areas in this country where one cannot receive an analogue signal. Can the Minister say what is the current estimate of the percentage of the population who live in such areas?
	The general problem faced by people who do not have a TV set was raised by Mr Mark Valentine, who wrote to me. I quote from his letter:
	"I am now additionally concerned at the proposal to permit TV licensing access to social security records. Why should people who don't own a TV, and therefore [having made a deliberate decision] have nothing to do with TV licensing, find that their social security records are open to the scrutiny of this organisation?".
	He is concerned as to why his details should be available when he will simply never have a TV and will not apply for a TV licence. What is the Minister's answer to Mr Valentine and others who share his concerns? I beg to move.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That was a fascinating speech but it bore no relation whatever to the amendment before us. However, I shall take it on its own terms and say as little as I can about the amendment to which the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, did not refer and try to deal with that to which she did refer.
	Of course, I recognise the underlying theme which is behind a whole series of amendments tabled by the noble Baroness. That theme, to which I believed she returned in the last minute or so of her speech, is understandable concern about the disclosure to outside bodies of personal information held by government departments for social security purposes.
	Before I deal with her specific questions, I want to assure the noble Baroness that the Government fully accept the need to ensure that only information which is strictly required is disclosed and that adequate safeguards are in place to prevent misuse or unlawful disclosure. In response to the amendment, perhaps I may make it clear that Clause 1 does not give the BBC or its contractors the right to require information to be supplied, nor control over the range of information that may be required. It provides only that the Secretary of State or the Northern Ireland department may, on request, supply social security information but will be under no obligation to do so. That is one of several safeguards incorporated in the Bill.
	Neither the Secretary of State nor the Northern Ireland department will be able to supply information to the BBC unless it has been prescribed by an order which will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny under the negative resolution procedure. I believe it is well known that the only information which will be required will be a person's name, address and age--that will apply also to 74 year-olds--in order to make the listing adequate for the next year, and the national insurance number as a unique identifier. Once the information that can be supplied has been prescribed, a request from the BBC or its contractors will be required before the information can be released. However, the discretion as to whether or not to do so will rest with the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland department.
	Clause 2 provides that the information supplied under the Bill may be used only in connection with television licences for which no fee is payable or reduced-fee licences. Under Clause 3, it will be a criminal offence to disclose information supplied under the Bill without lawful authority. I believe that we shall return to that theme when we deal with later amendments.
	The words,
	"at the request of the BBC",
	could be deleted from Clause 1 without affecting the way in which the transfer of information will work in practice. However, they have been included as an extra reassurance that the data will not be issued unless needed by the BBC for use in connection with free or reduced-fee licences.
	I turn to the issue of how the BBC will handle the data. Of course, the BBC is already used to handling personal information when administering the television licensing system. That includes, for example, notification of purchases of television sets. The BBC believes that its contractors are well acquainted with the importance of security and accountability. It has confirmed that it fully recognises the new responsibilities which the Bill will place on the corporation and its contractors.
	I understand that the BBC intends to revisit all its contracts in order to ensure security and accountability in relation to the administration of the over-75 concession. It will write to the chief executives of the contracts, bringing the provisions of the Bill to their attention and requiring them to submit a signed acknowledgement of the obligations and responsibilities that the new legislation will place on them. Those acknowledgement letters will be updated annually.
	To that end, the Secretary of State will, in addition, be concerned to ensure that effective systems are in place. A memorandum of understanding between the DSS and the BBC is being prepared. It will require the BBC to handle DSS data in a secure environment to the same standard as that which applies in the DSS and in accordance with the principles of the Data Protection Act. I shall return to the relevance of that Act in relation to later amendments. I hope that I have answered questions which might be raised in relation to the wording of the amendment.
	I now move on to questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, as to whether this is the best possible way of achieving our objective to provide free television licences for people aged 75 and over. In case it is not clear already, perhaps I may make it clear that our fundamental starting point is that it would not be possible to make this concession by asking old people--those aged 75 and over--to put themselves forward for the concession and then to prove that they were entitled to it. We considered what would have to be done in terms of producing evidence of age--whether by a birth certificate, a passport or anything else--and concluded that it would be quite unreasonable to place on people of 75 and over the burden of proof as to age. Therefore, we rejected all systems which would have made that necessary.
	We then turned to a system in which the onus to provide the evidence was placed on us, having considered the fact that the Department of Social Security already has that information. The system ensures that a very limited amount of information is provided to the BBC for a very limited purpose, as set out in Clause 2. The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, asked whether that would involve a wholesale transfer. Yes, indeed; a bulk transfer takes place of the specified information relating to people aged 74 years and over. That will enable the BBC to set up a database against which all applications can be checked.
	The noble Baroness will know that applications are being made via a mailing that has already gone out, at least in part of the country, to everybody with a television licence, inviting them to respond. All the information provided will be checked in bulk against information on the DSS database. It would be impossibly bureaucratic and expensive to seek information from the DSS every time an application for a free television licence was made.
	The noble Baroness also asked about the arrangements for updating the register--whether it will be done weekly, or even daily--and the costs involved. The data transfer arrangements have not been finalised but we expect that details of how the information will be supplied to the BBC or its contractors will be set out in a memorandum--or memoranda--of understanding between the BBC and the Department of Social Security and the relevant Northern Ireland department. Taking into account the mailings, the new computer system, advertisements, literature, radio and television trails and field force visits, the BBC is expecting to spend approximately £24 million.
	The noble Baroness's final question was about why the details of those who do not own a television or cannot receive any transmissions should be passed to the BBC. There are two ways to answer that. First, the information is being supplied in bulk, not on an individual basis, so nobody is being picked out. Secondly, if no query is made against the database because no application is made, the information will go no further and will be maintained under the control of the BBC in conditions as secure as those in the DSS.
	I have a couple of answers about the frequency of data downloads. We intend to update the records of live over-75s every November, with a monthly update for deaths.

Baroness O'Cathain: I was gratified to hear some of the responses to my noble friend's questions. It would be too big a burden to ask the over-75s to provide the information, particularly for those who are disabled in any way. The mentally impaired might watch television a lot but would not be able to fill in a form. Some people cannot read or write. I am happy with the Minister's responses on that.
	The BBC will apparently be spending £24 million on mailings, field forces and other items. I am told that the BBC is not awash with money and needs every penny that it can get, so that is quite a lot of money for it to spend. As I understand it, the BBC has to request the information from the social security database. That could be done in one telephone call because the information will be sent in bulk. Surely there is no need to get people to apply or for the BBC to spend any money. Am I being completely stupid?
	Someone who has never had a television set and never wants to watch television will still, willy-nilly, have his information sent to the BBC. The Minister has not given a good enough answer on that. People feel strongly about their social security information being given to anyone other than a government department.

Lord Lucas: I am concerned about what the Minister said about how data will be handled. In his previous existence he was involved with businesses that handled data. I am sure that he knows that one principle of data handling is never to duplicate anything. Running duplicate databases causes endless hassle and pain, yet the Government are planning to run a massive duplicated database. The poor old BBC will be up to 12 months behind with address data. Old people do not just grow roots and stay in the same place. There will be all sorts of occasions on which the address data held on the computer are wrong. That will generate a manual query on each occasion. Even death data are likely to be a couple of months out of date, which will generate another host of manual queries to be sorted out on the telephone. It is a recipe for chaos, confusion and difficulty.
	Surely anyone in business would run a little query to the DSS over the Internet asking whether the information that they had on the people applying for a reduced or zero-rated television licence matched DSS records. That would require a simple yes or no answer and the information need never leave the DSS. The information about my bank account does not leave my bank when I stick my card into an ATM belonging to another bank. The machine merely asks whether I am good for the money. Rather than shifting databases around the place, people run queries into them. Why are the Government going against all good practice?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I shall try to reply to all those points. If the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has further points that she wants me to reply to, I shall do so afterwards.
	I was relieved to hear the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, say that she basically thought that the system was fine and that, for the reasons that I explained, we should not ask people to fill in forms and justify themselves.
	The £24 million will not be a cost to the BBC. It will be reimbursed by the DSS. The BBC and the DSS are in an impossible position when people ask whether that sum is justified. They have been criticised elsewhere--although not here today--for spending too much but they would be just as strongly criticised if they were not doing enough to promote the concession and ensure that everybody knew about it.
	The alternative that the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, seemed to be proposing was that the BBC should issue the free licences on the basis of the database provided by the DSS without requiring any application. That would not be appropriate, because there would be potentially millions of free licences swanning around the country, possibly because of errors in the database. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas; all databases are rubbish. That is a basic law of data processing. They all need to be de-duplicated and corrected in many ways. If we simply relied on the database without requiring an application, a significant proportion of licences might be wrongly addressed or not claimed. That would be disastrous and we would be severely criticised.

Baroness O'Cathain: At one stage, the Minister said that a person who cannot write or is not capable mentally of applying for a TV licence will be able to obtain one. How will that be possible if there is to be no application? My proposal is that if a person is in receipt of a DSS application, the name, age and address will be known. Therefore, it may be possible to send out a form which says, "Ask someone to take this to your local post office for a television licence".

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It is not the application which is the problem; proof of qualification is the difficulty for old people. I do not know how many Members of the Committee have seen the form. I have received a form at home and it is very easy to deal with. There really is no difficulty about it. It is quite possible for anybody else in the household to complete the form on behalf of an old person. It will then simply be checked against the database.
	The noble Baroness then asked me again about Mr Valentine, the correspondent of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. That absolutely minimal information--name, address, age and national insurance number--will go onto a BBC database rather than onto a DSS database. But it will not be interrogated unless somebody makes a claim. Mr Valentine will not make a claim; his details will stay in the BBC database with all of the same conditions relating to security and confidentiality that apply to the DSS database and will never be used. I suggest to the Committee that that is a more efficient system than going from the BBC to the DSS each time there is an application.
	I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, was suggesting that we should keep the database in the same place. I do not care where it is kept physically and I do not even know physically what it consists of. Those matters are beyond my ken. But for information which is held by the DSS for social security purposes to be used for another purpose by the BBC, whether it is used in DSS or BBC offices or the offices of BBC or DSS contractors, is a step which requires primary legislation. That is what this Bill is about.
	I can correspond with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on the technical details for as long as he likes. But it must be done in that way because we must observe proper rules about the protection of public information. We must observe the Data Protection Act 1998 and we must observe the rules of the Social Security Administration Act 1992.

Lord Lucas: The only piece of information for which I should like to trouble the noble Lord by letter is the rate at which people over 75 change address. How many people aged over 75 change their address in an average year?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I am sorry, I failed to answer that. The reason that it is done once a year is because the licence is issued for a year. If a person changes his address, he takes his licence with him. Deaths, which would affect the validity of the licence, will be updated monthly.

Lord Lucas: Perhaps I am not understanding the process. If I apply, being over 75, for one of the free licences, I must connect myself with a particular address. If the database of the BBC, being out of date, has me at my old address, that will generate a query. That must be dealt with manually by someone ringing up the DSS and saying, "Has this old codger moved?"
	I want to know the number of those exceptions which are likely to be generated in a year. I am sure that that is data which the DSS can supply, given some notice, because that is something about which the wonderful new system can be interrogated.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I am sure that I can write to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about that. After all, he is describing what will happen at the very beginning of the system when it is introduced for the first time. I do not know the answer. But this is a better system than one which involves individual searches of the DSS database. It is much better to have the bulk transfer which I have described.
	In any event, verification by the DSS will involve disclosure of information. That is why we have introduced primary legislation.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I thank the Minister for answering the questions of my noble friends at that point. It has certainly helped to shorten my response.
	First, the noble Lord rather took me to task and said that I had asked a series of questions which had nothing to do with my amendment. In my defence, perhaps I may say that my amendment sought to strike out the words,
	"at the request of the BBC", and since the Government's own legislation shows that the BBC comprises all the contractors who are operating the data system, I feel that I was right to pose the questions which I did.
	I am grateful to my noble friends for raising specific questions about how the database will operate. I am not too encouraged that even the Minister was moved to say that all databases are rubbish. I must remember that in future.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I should just like to say that my experience that all databases are rubbish comes from the private sector.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: Saved by the bell! The Minister answered some questions with regard to the specific transfer of information; for example, change of address, when people become 74 and when they die. I shall read very carefully what he said in response to those questions. I am still not completely convinced that the interface of information transfer will work as effectively as it might.
	I am concerned also that the Minister said, I believe, that the precise system by which the transfer will take place has not yet been worked out. However, later, when messages had been passed to him, he gave the Committee some answers in relation to that. He referred to the fact that a memorandum of understanding would be worked out with regard to the transfer of information. There will certainly be a later amendment which refers to what I thought was a different memorandum of understanding.
	At present, the costs of transfer of information are estimated at £24 million for the first year of operation. And yet, the details of that transfer have not been worked out. Therefore, I am unsure whether that estimate of the cost can be accurate. We may wish to return to that matter. But at this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: moved Amendment No. 2:
	Page 1, line 7, leave out from ("includes") to end of line 8 and insert ("a person or persons employed by the companies providing the BBC with services in connection with verifying that a person who applies for a television licence for which no fee is payable is entitled to hold it").

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: The purpose of this amendment is to make it clear who will have sight of the information which will be transferred from the DSS to the BBC and its contractors. When we last debated this matter, there was some mention of just who will see this information.
	After all, Clause 1 authorises the transfer of information and subsection (2) extends the definition of the BBC to include persons providing services to it. The Notes on Clauses explain to us that that is simply because, in practice, much of the administration of the TV licensing system is carried out on behalf of the BBC by its contractors. The particular company concerned is Envision. It was awarded the contract for the administration and enforcement of the licence fee just about a year ago and its shareholders are the Post Office subsidiary SSL, the WPP Group and Bull Information Systems Limited.
	Later, I have other amendments which deal with questions about how those particular contractors will operate. But at Second Reading the issue I raised, to which I return now, is the fact that the definition proposed by the Government in Clause 1(2) is so wide that in practice it could conceivably include even the post office counter clerks who play a part in processing applications for TV licences.
	At that stage, the Minister sought to reassure me and said that that was absolutely not the case and that that could not take place. He said that post office counter clerks will not have access to any confidential data. Of course, I accept the Minister's assurance on that. But if that is the case, why is the Bill written in such a way that there could be a much broader definition? Would it not be better, perhaps, to find more felicitous wording so that the intentions of the Government are absolutely clear, and therefore make clear that only those people who are involved in the verification of the applications should see that DSS information? I beg to move.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I anticipated some of the answers to the amendment in my response to Amendment No. 1. However, there is no harm in setting out the stall. I recognise the concern expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, both now and at Second Reading, about making sensitive personal information freely available to people working within the television licensing system who have no good reason to see it. As the noble Baroness said, I reassured the House at Second Reading that post office counter clerks would not have any access to confidential data. I am grateful for her acceptance of that assurance. However, clearly it has not reassured her on the wider issues. That is fair enough.
	There are two possible interpretations to the amendment. However, the effect would be that the DSS and the Northern Ireland department could supply information only to the BBC and persons employed by companies providing the BBC with services in connection with verifying entitlement to a free licence. That is what the amendment states.
	That could mean two things. It could mean that information would be supplied only to companies providing the BBC with services in connection with verifying entitlement to a free licence and nothing else. That would mean that nobody could have it because the contractors to the BBC who will be handling this information provide the whole range of TV licensing services to the BBC. Alternatively, it could mean only those who are providing the services, although they could provide other services. If that is the case, the amendment is unnecessary, because that is what the Bill states.
	I reassure the noble Baroness that in practice the DSS and the Northern Ireland department will provide information only to those companies which the BBC has confirmed are involved in the administration of free television licences or any future prescribed concessionary scheme, which is what Clause 2 states.
	Information will not be provided unless the DSS and the Northern Ireland department are satisfied that the contractor requires it for the administration of the concession. If the contractor then released it to anybody else--another contractor who did not genuinely need it for that purpose--the first contractor would fall foul of Clause 2 and Clause 3 on offences, so the amendment is unnecessary.
	The amendment could make it difficult to operate the verification system. As I have said, in practice, the BBC's contractors provide a range of services. That would create great difficulties. I am sorry to have to say what I do say on occasion to the Opposition Front Bench; that is, that the amendment is either unnecessary or it could be extremely damaging. I hope that it will not be pressed.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I thank the Minister for his explanation. I certainly have no intention of trying to find the best answer. It sounds as though I have proved how difficult it is to find any wording which closely fits the Bill. I am grateful for the assurances given by the Minister with regard to the intention that those people who will have sight of the information will be only those involved in carrying out the verification process. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: moved Amendment No. 3:
	Page 1, line 10, leave out from ("information") to ("obtained") in line 11 and insert ("about the age, addresses, date of birth, and National Insurance number of persons aged 74 or over, and about the date of death of such a person,").

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: In moving Amendment No. 3, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 4. In a sense, the amendment has been previewed in our debate on Amendment No. 1.
	The purpose of the amendments is to ensure that there is, on the face of the Bill, a definition of the categories of information which could be transmitted to the BBC. On at least two occasions the Minister has referred to the fact that one does not need to worry too much because the information that is to be transferred from the DSS to the BBC will be closely defined and confined to age, address, death and national insurance number. The Minister also referred to the fact that the information will be defined by an order.
	I thank the officials at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport who put copies of the draft statutory instrument in the Printed Paper Office and, indeed, ensured that Front Bench spokesmen have had an advance copy, for which I am grateful.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: And, indeed, all those who spoke at Second Reading.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I was not aware of that. I am grateful to the Minister for making that clear. However, having read the statutory instrument, I am even more puzzled about why the Government decided to avoid putting that list of information on to the face of the Bill. Why leave it to a statutory instrument? I am concerned that the reason may be that there are plans further to expand the scheme about which, at present, the House has no knowledge. That may not be the case. There may be no such intention on the part of the Government. However, by failing to make clear such information on the face of the Bill, the Government raise the suspicion that more information could be transmitted than is currently admitted to be the case. The Explanatory Notes refer in general to "social security information", which could be all the social security files. At Second Reading and today the Minister made clear that he does not intend that to be the case. However, some of the statements by him have referred to other prescribed information which might have to be included. We are certainly led to believe that the information currently referred to may not be the only information to be transferred.
	Perhaps I may refer to a second, entirely different issue which is also raised by my amendments. Noble Lords may have thought that I had allowed a misprint in my amendments to go through. In listing the information to be made available to the BBC, I stipulated that included should be the addresses, in the plural, of people aged 74 or over. The Government's intention is to hand over only the principal address that is registered. My purpose is simply to ask the Government whether they intend that the benefit of a free TV licence will be enjoyed only by people who are 75 and over at just one address. That seemed to be the implication of what the Minister said at Second Reading when he referred to "principal address".
	On the first occasion when I began to think about it, the answer to the question, "Why only at one address?" sounded obvious. But are there not circumstances in which people who live as members of the same household might be allowed to claim in respect of more than one address? I refer, for example, to a person aged 75 or over who has a holiday home and might spend six months in each and consider both to be his home. Or--this might be considered rather frivolous but it has a serious import too--perhaps one works in London during the week and then goes on to one's principal home at the weekend. After all, I am advised by the Library that 38.8 per cent of Members of your Lordships' House are aged 75 or over and therefore could benefit from this particular payment.
	If the Minister responds that the Government's intention is not to give this benefit to people who are not financially in need, my question will be: in that case, why have they made this a universal benefit, not linked to need? More seriously, and perhaps more reasonably, what about the position of a husband and wife who live apart, perhaps because one is seeking medical attention in the area where the other cannot live? Are those two households to enjoy the benefit of a free licence?
	These are detailed questions. I realise that the Minister may not have had the opportunity to consider them at this stage. However, I should be grateful if he could answer as far as he may at this point. I beg to move.

Baroness Fookes: I thank the department for giving the information about the draft order, which was most useful. But although I was pleased to receive a copy of the information, I am still concerned that we should need it at all.
	It is an important principle that, as far as possible, information in relation to a Bill should be on the face of the Bill unless there are extremely good reasons for it to be otherwise. I am not at all clear why this fairly simple information should not be on the face of the Bill.
	I had not thought about the question of addresses, but am intrigued by the points raised by my noble friend Lady Anelay and shall be interested to hear the Minister's response.

Lord Avebury: In moving this amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, prompted me to ask a question, the answer to which I hope is fairly simple; that is, what happens to gypsies or those who are of an itinerant way of life? They may have an address on a local authority or private site which is licensed for that purpose. They may then move away from that site, particularly during the summer for work of an agricultural nature and then come back during the winter. But there are other people who, because of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, do not reside on a fixed site. They move around the country from one tolerated site to another or may simply live on the verge of a roadside where the local authority allows them to remain.
	If a person aged 75 or over is in one of those groups, presumably they are just as entitled to a free television licence as someone who lives in a bricks-and-mortar house. However, they may not have an address which they can supply to the BBC or Department of Social Security which would qualify them for the purpose. What are we to do about that?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I start with the last point first and will come back to the other issues.
	I assume that King Lear was over 75 years of age. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that he gave most of his castle to Goneril and Regan, and would have given it to Cordelia if she had answered the question in the way that was intended. He and his retinue--be it 20, 10 or one--live in a little part of his castle. They visit Goneril and they visit Regan, and if Cordelia was not living on the streets, they would go to her as well.
	It is not our intention that King Lear should have more than one free licence. It is our intention that King Lear and everybody else over the age of 75 should have a free television licence at their principal address. There is nothing new in that. That is exactly what happens with people who are paying for their licence. They have a licence at their principal address. If they want a television set somewhere else, they have to pay for that as well.
	Our assumption is that people will have a free licence at their principal address and that Goneril will not benefit when Regan is looking after her father, and that Regan will not benefit when Goneril is looking after her father. That is entirely reasonable.
	The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred to gypsies. I do not know what they do at the moment in relation to paying for a television licence. I assume that on the date they apply for a television licence, they have an address. That address is used for the licence and they carry it around with them. At least they do not have two different places, one for the weekend and one for during the week. They move themselves lock, stock and barrel from one place to another. I assume that that works perfectly well for television licences. We do not feel that there is a problem in relation to principal addresses. We mean the legislation to cover the principal address.
	However, I am relieved to learn that the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, is content with the parliamentary scrutiny which is proposed in this Bill in the sense that the information is not being left to the Government to decide; it has to be prescribed by order. What she is not content about, and what the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, is not content about--I understand their concern--is why we should not place the information on the face of the Bill when I have already stated what it is going to be.
	There is a need for the degree of flexibility provided by secondary legislation. Clause 2 states:
	"'Reduced-fee licences' means television licences ... for which a reduced fee is payable; and ... which fall within a prescribed category".
	In other words, theoretically it is possible to extend this scheme for the transfer of information from the DSS to the BBC for any future scheme that there might be of a comparable nature. We have no intention of introducing such a scheme. But we would not want to have to introduce primary legislation if at some time this or any future government wanted to do so. We are confident that the information set out in the draft order is enough for the smooth administration of the current scheme. The way that we envisage the scheme working depends on the interface between the BBC's current licensing scheme and the DSS database as currently structured. We cannot rule out the possibility that one or both of those sets of information will be restructured at some time in the future in such a way that the interface no longer works exactly as proposed at present.
	As I said, we do not want to rule out the possibility, at some time in the future, of introducing different reduced-fee schemes, either to replace this one or in addition to it. It would be short-sighted to arrange matters so that a technical Bill of this sort were required if any such changes to the scheme were made. We believe that secondary legislation is the most appropriate method in this case where details may change without upsetting the principles which will be fully debated in the course of the passage of this Bill.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I thank the Minister for his answer. We seem to have been dwelling on two forms of "principle". The first is the principle of what information should be on the face of the Bill and the second is the matter of the principal address.
	With regard to what information should appear on the face of a Bill, Opposition parties will continue to disagree with governments as to how far that should go; and no doubt we shall return to that issue. I was particularly interested to hear the Minister say more clearly perhaps than was said in another place that there may be occasions on which different schemes need to be introduced, or may be planned by the Government to provide reduced-fee licences. That may be something we shall discuss further when the future of broadcasting and the licence fee itself are discussed.
	I was intrigued by the reference of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, to gypsies and to how those who were itinerant in general have access to benefits such as this. I confess it is not a question to which I had applied my mind; I should have done so. I shall certainly follow up that issue between now and Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendment No. 4 not moved.]

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: moved Amendment No. 5:
	Page 1, line 16, at end insert--
	("( ) The Secretary of State shall not supply information to the BBC under the provisions of this section unless he is satisfied that effective systems are in place at the BBC to prevent accidental or unlawful transmission of the information or unlawful obtaining of the information.").

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: In moving Amendment No. 5, with the leave of the Committee I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 6, 8, 9 and 11.
	This group of amendments addresses the question of how secure the transfer and the storage of information will be as it flows from the DSS to the BBC's contractors. In relation to Amendment No. 5, the intention is to make it clear on the face of the Bill that it should be the duty of the Secretary of State to ensure that appropriate safeguards are in place before he agrees to release it to the BBC and the contractors.
	The Minister referred briefly to the fact that the Secretary of State should have the duty to ensure that proper systems are in place before the information is transmitted. After all, the Secretary of State has been given information for one purpose and it is now being used for another by the contractors of the BBC. The concern is that their information technology systems may not come up to scratch. At Second Reading the Minister sought to reassure me on this point. He said:
	"The regime proposed for BBC subcontractors is exactly the same as that used by the DSS, which for many years has used subcontractors to process the data in question".--[Official Report, 15/6/00; col. 1846.]
	The point that I am trying to get across is that surely there is a difference between the past experience of the DSS and that proposed in the Bill. Previously the DSS has had direct contractual contact with its own sub-contractors; in other words, there has been a direct interface. But under the Bill the relationship of the DSS with the BBC's contractors is indirect--it is on a loop via the BBC. So the BBC faces towards the DSS in one direction and in the other towards its own sub-contractors. My concern is: how can we make sure that the link between the DSS and the sub-contractors is secure enough to ensure that the transfer of information is properly made?
	The Minister said earlier that the way in which the Secretary of State would relate to the sub-contractors would be set out in a memorandum of understanding between the DSS and the BBC. My question in that respect is posed simply to obtain information because I do not know the answer. What is the legal status of the memorandum of understanding? If such a memorandum is produced, what recourse does either party have if it is not adhered to? I beg to move.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I apologise if in my enthusiasm to answer Amendment No. 1 at some length--because I was trying to anticipate the range of the Opposition's concerns--I probably answered quite a number of the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has now raised.
	Amendment No. 5 would prohibit the Department of Social Security from supplying information to the BBC under Clause 1 unless it was satisfied that effective systems were in place to protect that information from accidental or unlawful transmission or otherwise from being unlawfully obtained. But both the BBC and the DSS are bound by the Data Protection Act 1998, which must be adhered to when data are being processed. In particular, the eight data protection principles must be observed. We do not have to say so in the Bill because that is an overriding obligation.
	Principle 7 states:
	"Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data".
	As I said in response to Amendment No. 1, the Secretary will be concerned to ensure that effective systems are in place to that end. A memorandum of understanding between the DSS and the BBC is being prepared. It will require the BBC to handle DSS data in a secure environment to the same standard as applies in the DSS and in accordance with the principles, especially Principle 7, of the Data Protection Act. When that memorandum of understanding has been produced, I undertake to send it to all noble Lords taking part in this debate. I shall also place a copy in the Library of the House.
	However, there is a further point that the noble Baroness raised regarding what legal sanctions apply. Clause 3 of the Bill makes it an offence to disclose the information supplied by the DSS "without lawful authority". This provision and the penalties that apply are designed to protect the information in the same terms as would apply if it were protected in the hands of the DSS. It has been modelled on Section 123 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992--of which we shall hear more--which prohibits unlawful disclosure of social security information by DSS employees and others.
	Therefore, the effect of subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 1 is that information from the DSS can be supplied either to the BBC or to persons supplying services to the BBC; and we have already covered that ground. To protect this information, subsection (1) of Clause 3 provides that anyone to whom information is supplied under Clause 1, defined in subsection (1) of Clause 2 as "a recipient", is guilty of an offence if he or she discloses the information without lawful authority. Subsection (2) of Clause 3 provides that anyone who could, in practice, get the information--either the BBC, a contractor or the staff of either--is also capable of being charged with an offence.
	Taken together, Amendments Nos. 6, 8, 9 and 11 would simply replace the expression "a recipient" with the words "the BBC". But in the Bill as drafted "a recipient" is simply a label for the person receiving information under Clause 1. Therefore, if we were to change that label as proposed in these amendments, it would have no practical effect. The offences would cover the same people as is the case at present.
	Both the Government and the BBC are keenly aware of the need to secure proper security for personal information. The Bill limits the use to which this information can be put and provides stringent penalties for unlawful disclosure. I hope that the noble Baroness will not press her amendments.

Lord Lucas: Perhaps I may take this opportunity to check with the Minister whether my understanding of the flow of information--and, indeed, the flow of money--in this business is correct. The BBC or its contractors receive the database. They receive applications from members of the public which they check against the database. If the person is entitled to a free licence, he or she is given one. The BBC or its contractors notify the Government in some way that the free licence has been given and the Government then give them the money for it. Am I correct in that assumption?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes, that is right.

Lord Lucas: In that case, two further questions arise. First, if this information did leak out, what use is it? Are we merely talking about a privacy matter here or is there a use that can be made of this information? For example, could the person holding the information use it to extract money in some other way? Alternatively, is it information that is entirely without consequence, except for the knowledge of the addresses of, say, elderly people, which might lead to them being mugged, or something? Are we talking about something of real financial consequence or something that is just an issue of privacy?
	Secondly, what check can there be to ensure that the BBC and its contractors do not collude vastly to inflate the number of free licences issued, thereby increasing the revenue to the BBC and presumably splitting the amount between them? I presume that the Government will have no right of audit, so who will check the process?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The noble Lord's first question was whether there is a real risk. I have a very nasty mind and I can think of all sorts of risks. I can imagine being a burglar and wanting to go round and burgle people aged 75 and over. I can also imagine being an insurance company that, say, wants to sell annuities to people aged 75. So there is a real risk here. It is not just the fact that we must do it because it is the law and because that is what the Data Protection Act says. In any case, a fundamental principle of the way that public service works in this country is that we do not use other people's information for purposes for which it was not intended. I have no problems about what we are doing in that respect.
	I am sorry. I was so enthusiastic about the noble Lord's first question that I have forgotten the second one--

Lord Lucas: Thinking the impossible, I had in mind that the BBC and its contractor could start putting in a lot of false claims about the licences issued.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes, collusion. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has a very suspicious mind; and quite rightly so. There is no more reason why the BBC and its contractors should engage in collusion than the DSS and its contractors. The rules are the same; the audit procedures will be comparable; and there will be the same controls as exist in any other case. The BBC is independently audited and the National Audit Office has jurisdiction over licence fee collection. I cannot think of any new opportunity arising here for criminal activity.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: Again, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I was intrigued by the questions asked by my noble friend Lord Lucas with regard to the use of information. Between now and the Report stage, I shall certainly want to follow up some of the implications of how information might be used. Indeed, it might be more wide-ranging that I previously considered.
	I was also most intrigued by the way that my noble friend Lord Lucas brought in the issue about potential collusion, or otherwise. I almost thought that he was about to propose that the BBC might not be audited by its own auditors but might perhaps be brought within the Government Accounts and Resources Bill. However, as the Minister has reminded me, we shall consider that Bill tomorrow.
	I am grateful to the noble Lord for saying that he will place a copy of the memorandum of understanding in the Library of the House. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	Clause 1 agreed to.
	Clause 2 [Use to which information may be put]:
	On Question, Whether Clause 2 shall stand part of the Bill?

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I have given notice that I intended to oppose the Question, That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill. However, the grounds on which I did so have now been addressed fully by the Minister in his comments on Amendments Nos. 1 and 2. I therefore have nothing further to say with regard to Clause 2.

Clause 2 agreed to.
	Clause 3 [Offences]:
	[Amendment No. 6 not moved.]

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: moved Amendment No. 7:
	Page 1, line 24, after ("he") insert ("knowingly").

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: In moving Amendment No. 7, I wish to speak also to Amendments Nos. 10 and 12. These amendments address a problem that arises out of the terms of Clause 3, which makes it an offence for certain persons to disclose the information we are discussing without lawful authority. The noble Lord referred briefly to that matter.
	This would on the face of it seem a sensible and straightforward provision. However, I am worried that the special circumstances that can be involved in the electronic communication of information mean that individuals could fall foul of these penalties without intending to breach the terms of the Bill.
	Amendment No. 8 refers to "a recipient". Amendment No. 11 seeks to amend Clause 3(2), which states,
	"A person who is or has been employed by a recipient, or engaged in the provision of services to a recipient".
	However, the objective of both amendments is the same; namely, that one should be guilty of an offence only if one knowingly discloses that information.
	At Second Reading, the Minister tried to reassure me with regard to the dangers of accidental disclosure. Then, as tonight, he was in a literary mood. He said that if one is reckless or just plain stupid one can easily release information by accident. He illustrated the point by quoting from the latest Philip Roth novel--that is rather more up to date than "King Lear"--in which a character sends an e-mail but by mistake clicks on the wrong button and sends it to everyone in her university department with some embarrassing results. I argue that mistakes can happen in electronic communication even where the sender is neither reckless nor plain stupid. The accidental disclosure that I am considering is far more complex and would not be the fault of the sender, nor indeed of the recipient, if it were forwarded unintentionally.
	Someone who is employed by BBC contractors may receive an e-mail but, unknown to that person, his PC is infected with a virus which may be far more complex than the "Love Bug" virus, which attached itself to the address book. The virus attaches itself to their Outlook programme or equivalent and automatically directs the PC to forward all received e-mail to whoever has been in contact with that PC. Should one be guilty in that situation of an offence under this Bill when one has not knowingly transmitted the information?
	Amendment No. 13 provides a different solution to the same problem. I have tabled it to enable all the options to be disposed of in one go in Committee. It would extend the definition in Clause 3(4) of what constitutes a defence for a person charged with an offence under this Bill.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I believe that the noble Baroness refers to Amendment No. 12, not Amendment No. 13.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I beg the pardon of the Committee; I am speaking to Amendment No. 12. Amendment No. 12 provides a different solution to the same problem. It extends the definition of what constitutes a defence. It would mean that if someone disclosed information to someone who had the authority to receive it under the terms of Clause 1 and then the information was transmitted onwards in error--or perhaps because of a failure of the Internet service provider's own systems--he would have a defence to the absolute offence that is created in Clause 3(1).
	I have provided two alternative solutions to give the Government the opportunity to say whether they intend that someone who has transmitted information unknowingly should be subject to penalties along with those who knowingly transmit information. I beg to move.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I ought to start by referring again to the Data Protection Act and Principle 7, which states:
	"Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data".
	Clearly, the implications of the offence in Clause 3 go further than is strictly implied by Principle 7 of the Data Protection Act. However, we must consider this matter from the point of view of the people whose personal data are being used in the circumstances that we are discussing.
	The effect of Amendments Nos. 7 and 10--and of Amendment No. 12 through a different route--would be to make it easier for those covered (that is, the BBC, or one of its contractors, or the employees of the BBC or one of its contractors) to get away with disclosing the information supplied by the DSS under Clause 1. This is because an offence under the amendment would be committed only if the action of disclosure was a deliberate act. It would mean that a careless or thoughtless person who released information accidentally in any of the ways which the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has described, would not commit an offence. It would mean that if the person thought that the information had been obtained in some way other than under Clause 1, he or she would not commit an offence by disclosing it. It would mean that a person who thought, however unreasonably, that he or she had lawful authority to release information, would not commit an offence.
	I understand the fear that someone who is not fundamentally a bad person might find himself or herself having committed an offence which could send them to prison, without having had the slightest intention to do so. However, if personal information is disclosed, the person affected (whose personal information it is) may not care very much whether the disclosure was malicious or accidental, careless, negligent or reckless--the damage is done, although the damage is not of the same order as I mentioned when I quoted from a Philip Roth novel. My fundamental point is that degrees of culpability are best left to the courts to consider and to reflect in sentencing. An action that was clearly carried out unknowingly would be unlikely to attract a severe penalty.
	The Bill as drafted preserves an important principle; namely, that personal information should be protected. It protects it in the same terms as it would be protected under Section 123 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, which was passed by the previous government. That section makes it an offence for an employee or former employee of the DSS to release personal information obtained in the course of his or her employment.
	The defences in Clause 3 are the same as those in Section 123 of the 1992 Act. It is a defence for a person charged with the offence to prove that the disclosure was made in the reasonable--even if mistaken--belief that he or she was making the disclosure with lawful authority, or that the information was already public. One would be able to use that defence provided one had deliberately considered the question of whether one could disclose the information and had decided on reasonable grounds that one could. The Government believe that the clause as drafted strikes the right balance between the flexibility that the courts need to have and defences which are comparable with those which apply under the Social Security Administration Act 1992. We do not think it desirable to accept the amendments.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I was interested to hear that reply. One becomes a victim when one's personal information has been released. Whether that was done accidentally or not does not matter too much to the victim. However, the question of intent goes to the heart of whether one is prosecuted rather than to the heart of the level of penalty that is imposed. Between now and Report, I shall want to consider further what the Minister has said about that.

Lord Lucas: Before my noble friend withdraws her amendment, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether there is in English law a concept of "culpability". I have listened to his arguments and clearly the concept of "knowingly" is wrong in this case. But, when a person is dealing with information of this kind, there could be occasions when it is stolen from him in a way that he could not reasonably prevent. As the Bill is drafted at the moment, it seems that he will acquire a criminal record when a court may consider that he should not have one. Is there not a let-out for someone who a court may ultimately consider is in no way to blame for what happened? I presume that, under the Government's new system, he will not have a jury trial--and therefore there will be very little option for a jury to fail to convict because it thinks that the person is blameless. Should there not be at least some let-out to enable a court to say, "No blame attaches to this man; we shall not convict him", rather than for a court to say, "We convict him, but we shall let him walk free"?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: We have moved away from my level of competence in the law. The only mantra I have on this is that ignorance of the law is no defence. I shall write to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, after taking legal advice about degrees of culpability, which I accept is the phrase that I used.

Lord Avebury: Does the Minister agree that in the circumstances described by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, the Crown Prosecution Service would not bring charges against somebody who is the victim of a virus which caused his or her system to transmit personal information to an unauthorised person without their knowledge? How could anyone be charged with an offence under those circumstances?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That sounds reasonable to me; but, not being a lawyer, I shall not comment on it from the Dispatch Box.

Lord Lucas: I am delighted that the Minister is prepared to trust his liberty to the Crown Prosecution Service and the wisdom thereof. I shall bear that in mind on future occasions.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: This issue certainly bears further examination between now and Report stage. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, raised a very important question about whether or not one can expect the CPS to take a particular action. The only thing I learnt overall as a magistrate was that one could never anticipate what the CPS might be expected to do; but that is another matter.
	Clause 3(1) creates an absolute offence. The CPS might be in some difficulty if it knew that an offence had been committed and decided not to take action; it might be taken to task for that and its decision reviewed. Like the Minister, I am not a lawyer; I need to take further advice. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendments Nos. 8 to 12 not moved.]
	Clause 3 agreed to.
	Clause 4 [Liability of directors etc.]:

Viscount Allenby of Megiddo: Before calling the next amendment, I should inform the Committee that if Amendment No. 13 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 14.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: moved Amendment No. 13:
	Page 2, line 38, leave out ("any neglect") and insert ("negligence").

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: In moving Amendment No. 13, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 14 and 15.
	As has been made clear by the Deputy Chairman of Committees, these amendments are, to some extent, contradictory. Again I have tried to assist the Committee by bringing forward at this stage all the amendments that might reasonably be considered in order that issues may be disposed of now, and not brought back on Report.
	These amendments seek to give the Committee an opportunity to examine the effectiveness of Clause 4, which was inserted into the Bill at a late stage, at Third Reading in another place. It therefore may not have had the full scrutiny there that one might normally expect.
	Clause 4 extends the offence of unlawful disclosure to cover company directors. I support the intention behind that. Clause 4(1)(b) states that if an offence committed by a body corporate is attributable to any neglect on the part of an officer, then,
	"the officer as well as the body corporate is guilty of the offence".
	Several problems may flow from this. In another place, my right honourable friend Douglas Hogg pointed out that because the Bill uses the words "attributable to any neglect" on the part of a director, and because the offence is a neglect of duty, it will be necessary, first, to define the director's duties before it is possible to determine what a neglect of them would be. So what is the duty? Can the Minister say to whom the duty is owed? Is it a duty of confidentiality to the BBC, to the Secretary of State, or to the original provider of the information?
	Another problem flows from the use of the word "neglect". On its own, "neglect" perhaps has far too wide a meaning. It will penalise officers of a company who, perhaps, because of a dishonest or incompetent employee or processor, fall foul of the Bill. It could be over-burdensome on business.
	As currently drafted, the word "neglect" defines a failure to do what? Is it perhaps a failure to supervise other people; or perhaps a failure properly to police internal guidelines on the processing of information? It is not clear. The Government should be clear about this before penalising an officer for a failure to do something.
	There is a great deal of difference between the meanings of the two words "neglect" and "negligence". "Neglect" implies that one omits to do something that one is required to do; whereas, to me, "negligence" implies that perhaps I do something but I do it only badly or in part. "Neglect" surely means "omission", but not necessarily "negligent omission". In order to judge whether one has done one's duty negligently or in part, one comes back to the original premise: one needs to know what one's duty is. What advice have the Government received on this point from their lawyers and from the Institute of Directors?
	Amendment No. 14 refers to the words "wilful or deliberate". The amendment seeks to give some protection to an officer who is acting in good faith. It provides that he will be liable to prosecution only if his neglect or negligence is either wilful or deliberate. It suggests a need for some intent by an officer of the body corporate before he can be guilty of an offence. I return to my original intention in the last group of amendments--that is, to ensure that people who are trying to do their job properly are not prosecuted under the Bill. After all, we are trying to catch the people who are doing wrong, not those who are trying to do their work well.
	Amendment No. 15 seeks to obtain from the Government a clear definition of what they consider to be an officer of the company. What do they mean by the definition in Clause 4(3), which refers to,
	"or a person purporting to act in any such capacity"?
	Do the Government intend it to cover consultants to a company? What about non-executive directors who, strictly speaking, are not employed by the company? What do the Government say about the position of shadow or alternate directors who may be third parties appointed by a director and not employees of the company? Who is meant to be covered by Clause 4? I beg to move.

Baroness O'Cathain: I rise to support my noble friend in this group of amendments, even though one or two of them contradict each other.
	This is a completely new area of responsibility for company directors. They will be handling social security information--or, at least, they will be ultimately responsible for an organisation which handles social security information in a semi-commercial or commercial world. The responsibilities on company directors are getting more onerous by the day. There is no question but that unless people really go into the nuts and bolts of their responsibilities, and unless those responsibilities are clearly defined, fewer people will be willing to accept these onerous jobs. It is important that people should realise the duties of directors, but in this case those duties must be spelt out.
	It is nothing like dealing with a normal commercial organisation where one has information. One has responsibilities in terms of one's customers. For example, if one is in a grocery distribution business one has to make sure that everything is done to ensure that customers are not poisoned by the groceries that one distributes. If one is in the airline business--both of my examples come from experience on my part--one has to make sure that, as far as is humanly possible, safety comes first. To that end special committees of the board are set up for air safety, ground safety or whatever.
	In this area, which is a completely new area, where government information which is solely in the hands of civil servants will now be used by contractors to the BBC, one just needs to know the responsibilities of the directors of those contracting companies; otherwise, there could be a real problem in terms of the liability of the company directors.

Lord Avebury: The responsibilities of the directors and the contractors are the same in respect of this information as they are regarding the information about their own employees. They are bound by the Data Protection Act. As the Minister has already explained, the principles of the Data Protection Act, particularly Principle 7, govern the behaviour of the contractors and they have to take appropriate measures to see that this information does not get into unauthorised hands, just as any information of a personal nature within their own companies does not get into unauthorised hands. Therefore, I do not see that the responsibilities that are being placed on directors are any more difficult or onerous than those which they already undertake as directors of their own company.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I can go further than that in disagreeing with the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain. It is not just that there is an analogy between these obligations which a director has to his own employees; this formulation is exactly that which is used in Section 115 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992. It is not new. The wording is the same as has been in force for eight years. It has not caused any of the problems to the Institute of Directors or anyone else that the noble Baronesses, Lady Anelay and Lady O'Cathain, seem to think it might cause.
	The fact that we are using the exact wording used in 1992 means that it was dangerous to change the wording because it might be assumed that we were implying something different, which we certainly are not. The word "neglect" is perfectly clear. There is not a significant difference between "neglect" and "negligence". Neglect means that, if someone fails to do something that he ought to have done, he has been careless. It is clear enough that directors must exercise their management responsibilities in a way that ensures that all data are kept confidential. It would be impossible to define all of their duties because all companies are different. The roles of individual officers in a company will also vary. All disclosures will happen in different circumstances. The expression "negligence" is no more precise than "neglect". It may have some different meaning in some other circumstances, but it still does not say what the duties are. The same is true about "wilful or deliberate" disclosure. If we were to introduce that and not have it in the 1992 Act, we would have a difference on which someone would seize and which could mean that the degree of protection provided for people's personal data, with which I think and thought we were all concerned, would be weakened.
	Finally, I was interested to hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, had to say on Amendment No. 15. I was not clear whether she meant that it should apply to non-executive directors or shadow directors. If she does, all I can say is that it ought to apply to non-executive directors because non-executive directors share a responsibility for the activities of their company. "Shadow directors" is a concept used in company law for people who are not directors, and do not purport to be directors, but are listened to by the real directors. Under certain circumstances in other cases they can be liable and they ought to be liable here.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I am grateful to the Minister, particularly for his final words about the Government's views as to who should be caught within the remit of Clause 4. I think that that takes us forward in a helpful way, which was not achieved in another place. I still have some concerns about the Government's attitude towards the definitions of "neglect" and "negligence", but I think that is to be resolved on another occasion. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendments No. 14 and 15 not moved.]
	Clause 4 agreed to.
	Clause 5 agreed to.
	Clause 6 [Orders]:
	[Amendment No. 16 not moved.]
	Clause 6 agreed to.
	Remaining clause agreed to.
	House resumed: Bill reported without amendment.

Wireless Telegraphy (Television Licence Fees) Bill [H.L.]

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
	Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.--(Baroness Anelay of St Johns.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.
	House in Committee accordingly.
	[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Viscount Allenby of Megiddo) in the Chair.]
	Clause 1 [Reduced fee television licences: residential care accommodation]:

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: moved the amendment:
	Page 1, line 11, leave out ("1(b)(ii)" and insert ("1(b)(i)").

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I can be mercifully brief. On page 1, line 11 there is a misprint. The Bill refers to 1(b)(ii). It should read 1(b)(i). I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.
	Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
	Remaining clauses agreed to.
	House resumed: Bill reported with the amendment.

United Nations Peacekeeping Operations

Lord Avebury: rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what lessons can be drawn from the reports to the United Nations on UN operations in Srebrenica and Rwanda.
	My Lords, five years ago this month, the "safe area" of Srebrenica fell to Serbian forces and over 7,000 men and boys were massacred. The year before, 800,000 people were slaughtered in the Rwanda genocide, again under the noses of UN troops, who were ignominiously withdrawn as soon as the killings began. The General Assembly commissioned an assessment of the Srebrenica catastrophe and the Secretary-General announced an independent inquiry into the Rwanda genocide. It is those two investigations that noble Lords are being asked to consider tonight.
	The Secretary-General said that the Rwanda report concerned,
	"genocide in its purest and most evil form".
	He went on to say:
	"We must bitterly regret that we did not do more to prevent it".
	To most people, including the Security Council, it was,
	"a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing".
	As regards Srebrenica, the Secretary-General was,
	"only too painfully aware of the failures of the organisation in implementing [its] mandate".
	It was the largest massacre committed in Europe since the Second World War, of people who believed that their safety was guaranteed by the Security Council, by NATO and UNPROFOR. How did it happen?
	The "safe area" policy of April 1993 was decided by the Security Council under Chapter VII, but UNPROFOR was not given the resources or the mandate to implement it. It had to ensure full respect for the safe areas, although it was recognised that, in the absence of Serbian co-operation, additional forces would be needed, including air power. The UK Representative on the Security Council said exactly that in the debate on Resolution 836, but when the Secretariat demanded a further 36,000 ground troops, we opposed the idea. None of the co-sponsors of the resolution was prepared to offer any troops. Only 7,600 troops were authorised. As the commander of UNPROFOR said in December 1993, there was,
	"a fantastic gap between the resolutions of the Security Council and the will to execute those resolutions and the means available to commanders in the field".
	By January 1994, only 3,000 of the authorised troops had arrived and other contingents were kept on hold because their governments could not afford to equip them. No sense of urgency was fostered because the UN was not warned of Serbian intentions by the member states, whose intelligence services did know about them. A bureaucratic command structure was established, with Bosnian operations under their own commander, responsible to a theatre force commander in Zagreb and, through him, to the Secretary-General's special representative, Yasushi Akashi. One is reminded of the comment made by General Cosgrove, the Australian Commander of the UN force in East Timor, that the UN made Australia's defence bureaucracy look shark-like in its efficiency. Perhaps the UN should take him on as a consultant to improve its capacity to conduct peacekeeping operations.
	General Janvier, who had been appointed theatre commander in March 1995, was anxious to avoid confrontation with the Serbs. Both he and Akashi tried to water down the concept of the Rapid Reaction Force. Akashi threw his cards away by assuring the war criminal, Karadzic, that the force would operate under the existing peacekeeping rules of engagement.
	Srebrenica could not be defended by Dutchbat, a battalion comprising 150 lightly armed men; and they made no attempt to do so. Nor did they return to the Bosniaks weapons that had been confiscated from them so that they could defend themselves. On several occasions Dutchbat did call for air strikes, but Akashi and Janvier blocked the requests because they considered that it would be perceived as entering the war against the Serbs. They feared Serb reprisals against the peacekeepers.
	The Security Council tried to keep the peace where there was no peace to keep. Despite repeated evidence of Serbian aggression and bad faith, the council continued to behave as though ceasefires could be negotiated, humanitarian supplies delivered and the defenders of safe areas could sensibly be disarmed on the basis that UNPROFOR would correctly protect them, when it had neither the capacity nor the intention of doing so. The arms embargo left the Serbs in a position of almost overwhelming military superiority and deprived Bosnia of its right under the charter to self-defence. As the report states:
	"The problem, which cried out for a political/military solution, was that a Member State of the United Nations, left largely defenceless as a result of an arms embargo imposed upon it by the United Nations, was being dismembered by forces committed to its destruction".
	When there is no consensus on the response to active military conflicts, peacekeeping operations used as a substitute for consensus are likely to fail, yet peacekeepers are still being deployed into areas where there is no real ceasefire or peace agreement, as the Indian peacekeepers surrounded by the RUF at Kailahun in Sierra Leone have reason to know. Safe areas and protected zones do have a role in protecting civilians, but only with the consent of both parties to a conflict or if they are defended by a credible military force.
	The cardinal lesson of Srebrenica was that a deliberate and systematic attempt to terrorise, expel or murder an entire people must be met decisively with all necessary means. This lesson had to be learned twice in the Balkans, when the international community negotiated with an unscrupulous and murderous regime, now still holding power in Belgrade and still trying to destabilise Montenegro.
	In Rwanda, an attempt was made to exterminate an entire people, which was even more clearly signalled in advance. In 1993, the UN Rapporteur on Extrajudicial Executions drew attention to massacres of Tutsis and said that there was a serious danger of genocide. His report was largely ignored by UN headquarters.
	In January 1994, the UN commander in Rwanda, General Dallaire, warned that the Interahamwe were training 1,700 men to kill 1,000 Tutsis in 20 minutes. Opposition deputies and Belgian troops were to be murdered. He asked permission to give the informant protection and to seize the arms which were about to be distributed. Kofi Annan, then head of peacekeeping, refused both requests. Furthermore, he did not brief either the Secretary-General or the Security Council on the contents of the cable from General Dallaire, nor was anything done to follow up the information.
	Failure to seize the arms caches told the Interahamwe that no action was going to be taken against the preparations for genocide. There followed,
	"increasingly violent demonstrations, nightly grenade attacks, assassination attempts, political and ethnic killings".
	The Belgians asked the Secretary-General for the forces in Rwanda, UNAMIR, to be reinforced and given a stronger mandate, but that was ignored. General Dallaire proposed that UNAMIR should undertake cordon and search operations because neither the gendarmerie nor the army had the capacity to do so themselves. Kofi Annan refused permission. When Dallaire sent UN headquarters draft rules of engagement for the peacekeepers, he did not receive a response. Headquarters did not have a procedure for approving rules of engagement.
	The genocide began in earnest after the plane crash on 7th April at Kigali in which President Habyarimana was killed. As predicted, Belgian soldiers were murdered and the whole Belgian contingent was withdrawn, which was,
	"a terrible blow to the mission",
	as General Dallaire put it. The militia and soldiers set up road blocks and killed civilians, including the Prime Minister, while UNAMIR stood by. Faced with the choice between strengthening UNAMIR to prevent the genocide and doing nothing, the Security Council stated that it was
	"appalled at the ... deaths of thousands of ... civilians".
	It then proceeded to reduce the troops to a token presence of 270. Dallaire was sidelined by the governments of the troop-supplying states, which took direct control of the withdrawal. By the end of April, when 200,000 people had already been killed, the Secretary-General tried to persuade the Security Council to consider again the use of force to stop the killings. It responded, at the suggestion of the United Kingdom, by asking for "indicative contingency planning". It was not until 17th May that agreement was reached on a five-battalion force, but by the end of July--by which time the Rwandan Patriotic Front had occupied most of the country, stopping the slaughter--only one-tenth of the agreed troops had arrived.
	In Rwanda we provided grossly inadequate resources and lacked the will or the commitment to stop the genocide. Security Council members, including Britain, were reluctant to admit, in the face of abundant evidence, that a genocide was under way. So a key recommendation of the report was that a UN action plan to prevent genocide should be initiated, providing concrete input to the world conference against racism in 2001.
	I should like to ask the Minister whether that plan is being drafted, and will it include alerting the Security Council to reports by the Rapporteur on Extrajudicial Executions dealing with killings above a certain threshold? How would the plan deal with the situation in eastern DRC, where,
	"the systemic massacre of those [Rwandan Hutus] remaining in Zaire was an abhorrent crime against humanity",
	according to the Rapporteur in a passage of her current report headed "Genocide"?
	There needs to be a more flexible approach to revising the mandate and force levels when a peace agreement breaks down. In Sierra Leone, the Security Council did agree a substantial increase in UNAMSIL, with a more robust mandate, but still left an incapable government to provide inadequate security forces. Yet again, a fundamental assumption underlying a UN operation turns out to be wrong, and yet we blithely continue to ignore the error.
	In the Security Council debate on these reports they were hailed as a new standard of candour. If it is a standard, let every UN peacekeeping operation be subject to audit in the future. That would make the UN accountable, from the Secretary-General downwards, and ensure that warning signs of the type that we saw in the two reports are heeded in future. In any case, the Secretary-General should report periodically on the measures taken on the recommendations in both reports, both to the Security Council and to the Millennium Assembly in September.
	The Canadian Foreign Minister said that the best way to honour the victims of the Rwandan genocide was a commitment never to turn away from the civilian victims of armed conflict again. But similar statements were made after the Holocaust, and before that about the Armenian genocide. If the world is really going to protect people threatened with racist violence and murder, states will have to provide the resources, the UN must have standing military and logistical capacity, and the Security Council will have to abolish the veto, the threat of which paralysed it over Kosovo. That may be Utopian, but if the Millennium Assembly goes by without the radical action demanded by these reports, we shall have failed the martyrs whose blood is on all our hands.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for initiating this important debate concerning two such horrific episodes in our history.
	On 11th July 1995, just a few months before the end of a three-and-a-half year war, the Bosnian Serb army overran Srebrenica, which had been designated a UN safe area (the same status was given to Sarajevo, Tuzla, Zepa, Bihac and Gorazde). After the horrific slaughter, 8,000 men and boys, anyone who was older than 14 years, were missing. Over 2,500 people have been found in mass graves.
	The enclave's inhabitants believed that the presence of 150 Dutch UN peacekeepers and the might of NATO air power would ensure their safety. But Serb forces pushed aside the UN troops and overran Srebrenica with ease. Within 48 hours, the Serbs eliminated the entire population. In the words of a judge at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia,
	"These are truly scenes from hell, written on the darkest pages of human history".
	As William Shawcross wrote in his superb book, Deliver us from Evil,
	"This catastrophe exposed more brutally and more geographically than anything else the inconsistencies and inadequacies of the way in which the world was now dealing with disorder and ethnic conflict".
	The UN report, based on about 100 interviews with a range of international figures involved in Bosnia, singles out the Bosnian Serb political and military leaders, Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, as the,
	"architects and implementers of the attempted genocide in Bosnia",
	and criticises all those who negotiated with them rather than using military force against them in the early stages of the war. It demands that they be brought to trial. They still have not.
	While blame is widely distributed, the UN's examination of its own record in Srebrenica breaks new ground by effectively damning the diplomatic nicety of trying to remain neutral and above the fray in civil conflict:
	"When the international community makes a solemn promise to safeguard and protect innocent civilians from massacre, then it must be willing to back its promise with the necessary means".
	Annan also pointed fingers at UN staff in New York--including himself, UN peacekeepers on the ground in Srebrenica and the six-nation Contact Group which oversees the Balkans.
	At the heart of the problem of protecting the safe areas was the refusal of the Security Council members, including the United States, to authorise enough troops to do the job. Boutros Ghali wanted 34,000 troops; the Security Council authorised only 7,400.
	The United Nations says that it failed to help save thousands of Bosnian Muslims from a Serb mass murder in 1995 because of errors, misjudgment and,
	"an inability to recognise the scope of the evil confronting us".
	At the root of the UN failure, according to the Secretary-General, was the Security Council's decision to respond to the war in Bosnia with an arms embargo, humanitarian aid and a peacekeeping force. The arms embargo left the Serbs in a position of overwhelming military dominance and deprived Bosnia of its right to self-defence. And neither humanitarian assistance nor peacekeepers could solve a problem which cried out for a political-military solution.
	"The cardinal lesson of Srebrenica is that a deliberate and systematic attempt to terrorise, expel or murder an entire people must be met decisively with all necessary means, and with the political will to carry the policy through to its logical conclusion".
	Annan encouraged the 188 UN member states to address issues raised in the report--including the institutional commitment to impartiality even when confronted with attempted genocide, and,
	"the persuasive ambivalence within the United Nations regarding the role of force in the pursuit of peace".
	After Srebrenica, the UN Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, should be commended for that open admission. The question, however, is whether his honesty has provoked bolder peacekeeping.
	In the conclusion to his long report, Annan invites UN member states to reflect on,
	"the gulf between mandate and means; the inadequacy of a symbolic deterrence in the face of a systematic campaign of violence; the pervasive ambivalence within the United Nations regarding the role of force in the pursuit of peace; and on an institutional ideology of impartiality even when confronted with attempted genocide".
	Has it happened yet?
	The Economist leader on the horror of Rwanda was entitled,
	"A look back at the biggest bloodstain on the world's conscience in the 1990s".
	Kofi Annan was brave enough to set up an inquiry which he knew would be critical of his role in the UN's failure to stop the genocide in Rwanda. Annan apologised to the Rwandan people for the UN failures.
	There are some 43 lessons identified in the UN report on Rwanda. I shall concentrate in the short time available on lesson 6. It says that member states with specific areas of expertise and capability should contribute troops for those tasks. Emphasis should be placed on capability rather than numbers. Future UN operations will require the right troops with the right equipment.
	I am not sure whether I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. The blame cannot be laid solely at the door of the UN Secretary-General. On 25th June 1999, the MoD and the FCO announced that British rapid reaction forces were to be made available to the UN under a new arrangement. Defence Secretary George Robertson said:
	"The new memorandum of understanding will allow the UN to use the best of Britain's armed forces for peace keeping operations".
	The Foreign Secretary added:
	"This agreement ... will make a greater number of the UK's front-line forces available to the UN as well as extra support in the form of aircraft, engineers, communications equipment and medical facilities".
	But when it was revealed that this would involve committing the entirety of Britain's Armed Forces, even those that we did not possess, the MoD back-tracked. It was a sham; the UK did not sign over the forces to the UN. It was clear that defence policy was being made on the hoof, driven by the whims of the Foreign Secretary rather than the interests of Britain and its Armed Forces.
	In the case of Sierra Leone, we have witnessed a painfully slow build up of the UN force that is supposed to protect the civilians in that African country. UNAMSIL is hardly an effective UN force. Today the UN mission in Sierra Leone is still under-strength, under-armed and ineffective. What is HMG doing to ensure that it does not happen again? It also calls into question the will of the world powers to stop atrocities in distant lands and highlights a basic flaw in UN peace-keeping missions where peace-keepers are deployed where there is no peace to keep.
	Sometimes the UN's failure is built into its structure. Where a permanent member of the Security Council opposes intervention no action will be authorised, hence the UN's silence about Russia's war crimes in Chechnya and its early impotence on Kosovo. But in cases where the council approves action it is fair to insist that it be serious. The UN member states need to embrace force to secure peace, brush neutrality aside and denounce evil in order to combat it. As Mr Annan so rightly said, the UN mission to end conflict does not preclude moral judgment; on the contrary, it makes it necessary.
	Does the United Nations need a stronger mandate? Sir Alexander Cadogan could not see how the council could work as from the very start Stalin insisted that each of the five must have the right to veto any military action voted on by the council. He told the implacable Russian Foreign Minister, one Mr Gromyko, "Look, you cannot have a system in which anybody can stop any order of council. Do you want a world organisation or not?" Gromyko's message from Stalin was "No".
	In October 1999 the Security Council authorised the establishment of UNAMSIL, a new and much larger mission with a maximum of 6,000 military personnel, including 260 military observers, to assist the government and the parties in carrying out the provisions of the Lome peace agreement. In February 2000 the Security Council, by resolution 1289, decided to revise the mandate to include a number of additional tasks. It expanded the military component to 11,100. By resolution 1299 of 19th May 2000 the Security Council again increased the authorised strength to 13,000 military personnel, which still included the 260 military observers.
	Following the report on Srebrenica and the current crisis in Sierra Leone, should the mandate of UNAMSIL peace keeping be changed to peace enforcement? Should the UN be given adequate powers and resources to restore stability and allow a negotiated peace? From a military perspective and with reference to military doctrine, peace keeping does not apply to a situation where there is no peace to keep. The publication Joint Warfare issued in 1998 now forms the basis of much of the UK's doctrine for peace support operations. Has it been applied in Sierra Leone? Have Her Majesty's Government ever consulted that document? Have the lessons of Bosnia been learnt? How far has the debate gone on the change of the UN mandate on Sierra Leone? It seems that the answer is no. The lessons have not been learnt. The latest moves to strengthen the mandate are hardly encouraging.
	What is our commitment worth? Do the Government intend to keep their promises? What reasons do HMG give for not properly supporting the UN Sierra Leone mandate? Will Her Majesty's Government support future UN peace keeping operations in full as the Robertson/Cook commitment seems to indicate, or will it renege once again, leaving us to mount another rescue mission?
	With these shameful incidents still fresh in our minds, I end with a quotation from William Shawcross:
	"In a more religious time it was only God whom we asked to deliver us from evil. Now we call upon our own man-made institutions for such deliverance. That is sometimes to ask for miracles".

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for initiating this debate. The noble Lord raises an important and interesting question, and it is perhaps unfortunate that a greater number of noble Lords have not been able to be present to share it with us.
	Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness have rightly outlined the history which led to the tragedies of Srebrenica and Rwanda. The cold-blooded slaughter of defenceless civilians in Srebrenica and Rwanda and the failure of the international community to prevent those slaughters stand as shameful events in recent history. Today we remember those who died and those who lost loved ones during those terrible tragedies. I agree with both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that we owe it to them and to the vulnerable everywhere to learn from experience and avoid repetition.
	The two reports published at the end of last year provide the painful but honest and objective analysis to aid us. The two reports stress the need for terror, murder and persecution to be met with decisive international action. They highlight the need to bring those responsible for such actions to justice and for the international community to improve current tools for conflict prevention and peace keeping. The Government have acted decisively to defend the lives and rights of those in danger. Most recently in Kosovo, our diplomatic and, ultimately, military services responded to the overriding humanitarian need of a people subjected to organised state terror and murder. On this occasion we did not fail, whatever others may have done before us. In East Timor British Gurkhas and police officers played a key part in international action to protect democracy and the right to free expression.
	I do not accept the assessment of the noble Baroness of what has been done in Sierra Leone. Britain has played a fundamental part in resisting illegal efforts to topple a legitimate government and in facilitating wider international action. There has been no back-tracking. We undertook to make available troops, including a rapid reaction capacity, and did so. We called upon others worldwide to join our efforts. The reshaping of Britain's Armed Forces following the 1998 Strategic Defence Review transformed our ability to contribute to peace keeping and humanitarian operations, with more and better equipped rapid reaction forces, additional strategic lift and better logistics capabilities. We declared most of those capabilities as potentially available to the UN in the June 1999 UN/UK MOU on peace keeping. These are just the kinds of capabilities that the UN needs. Progress on new defence arrangements in the European Union following the British initiative in autumn 1998 will enable Britain and the EU to contribute more effectively to international peace keeping efforts by enhancing European capabilities and speed of response.
	We have also stepped up work on conflict prevention. In practice, this has meant placing human rights at the centre of our foreign policy. We have worked ceaselessly in defence of the rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the core UN human rights instruments. That has meant the enhancement of co-ordination within government to ensure that we can use all the tools at our disposal--military, political and aid--coherently to prevent and manage conflicts. It has meant addressing the root causes of conflicts as well as the more immediate triggers, through support for democratic development and sustainable economic growth. It has also meant supporting the development of democratically accountable security forces which enhance rather than endanger the security and well-being of communities; tightening our own controls on arms export; agreeing a code of conduct with EU partners; and encouraging other states to pursue similarly responsible policies to help to limit the means of waging war.
	We have acted where we can to make a difference, but we recognise that we cannot be everywhere or do everything. We have also been working to ensure that others do their part. We continue our efforts to build international consensus around a set of guidelines that would help the council to decide how it should respond to large-scale atrocities. As Kofi Annan has said, the UN Security Council and the United Nations as a whole must forge unity behind the principle that large-scale violations of humanitarian law and crimes against humanity should not be allowed to stand.
	This is a core lesson of the tragedies of Srebrenica and Rwanda which we cannot afford to ignore. At the United Nations we have strongly supported the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda and Yugoslavia which was set up by the Security Council to bring those responsible for war crimes to justice. We have been in the vanguard of those supporting the establishment of the International Criminal Court.
	In the Security Council we have sought to ensure that resolutions mandating peacekeeping missions are as clear as possible and provide for the necessary resources for implementation. I know that noble Lords are interested in the accountability of the United Nations. I should therefore like to take this opportunity to underline that the UK has actively participated in this way, promoting greater transparency in the work of the Security Council.
	The UK's priorities have been made clear from Mr Annan's report on peacekeeping operations. We have outlined a number of priorities for the UN Secretary-General's report on peacekeeping operations. Those include an early warning: that the UN needs more effective mechanisms to collate and analyse early warning data and to identify programmes of preventive action. The department of peacekeeping operators in New York needs a chief of staff to draw together the various strands of planning permissions. We should like reports from the Secretary-General to contain more detailed recommendations for UN action. That will help the council to focus and use its time more effectively.
	In our view, it is essential that the UN identifies as many measures as possible to speed the planning and deployment of peacekeeping missions.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, can the Minister say anything about the information of the intelligence services of member states being made available to the United Nations? That could have made a difference in Srebrenica.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the noble Lord knows full well that it would be wholly inappropriate for me to disclose or discuss anything about our intelligence information, or anyone else's given to us. What I shall say is that we are seeking to make the information necessary to respond appropriately focused, well targeted and known to those who make the decisions.
	In addition, we have made comment about the troop contributors. In our view, the UN needs to ensure that peacekeeping contingents arrive; and that, when they arrive, they are trained, equipped and ready to take robust action. We agree with what has been said by noble Lords in that regard.
	We have also pressed for a more effective UN secretariat capacity to plan and conduct multi-functional peacekeeping missions and deploy forces rapidly.
	We have supported steps to ensure more effective protection of civilians in armed conflict. In the Security Council we have reiterated the importance of respect for civilians caught up in conflict and called for safe access for humanitarian agencies to civilians in need, adequately resourced peacekeeping, rapid deployment of peacekeepers and particular attention to the needs of vulnerable groups including refugees and the internally displaced. The UN force in Sierra Leone, and that foreshadowed for the DRC, are both mandated to protect civilians within their capabilities and areas of operation.
	To answer the noble Lord's point, Her Majesty's Government have made it clear that the UK has given its firm support to the proposed UN conference on racism and will work with partners to ensure that it leads to an effective action-orientated outcome. Kofi Annan has made clear his personal commitment to ensuring that the UN learns the lessons of Rwanda and Srebrenica. He intends to issue a keynote report on peace operations this summer. We hope that this report will draw together many of the strands I have outlined today and make further recommendations for decisive action. We have been working closely with the high level panel preparing the report and expect the report to be a focus for discussion at the millennium summit planned for this September.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, asked about the position in relation to Karadzic and Mladic. The international community has not forgotten the indictment against Karadzic. All those indicted for war crimes, including Karadzic, belong in The Hague in the custody of the ICTY. The commander of the Serb forces which assaulted Srebrenica, General Radislav Krstic, was also indicted by ICTY and was detained by SFOR in December 1999. His trial in The Hague is currently under way. We must remember that these issues take time. However, as others have said, they need to be addressed with a degree of vigour.
	Therefore, to conclude, this Government are committed to applying the lessons of Srebrenica and Rwanda and have already proved their determination to do so. We shall continue working with the UN and other member states to create a system where human rights and international peace and stability are given the very highest priority.

Lord Hylton: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, does she feel able to say something in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, who rightly pointed out that it is ridiculous to talk about peacekeeping where there is no peace agreement let alone a cease-fire, as we have seen in many cases? If the Minister can say something on those lines, can she also say how further killings might be prevented in Indonesia?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have very much taken to heart the recommendations made in the report. It made clear that before peacekeepers can keep the peace there has to be a peace to keep. That lesson has been clearly learned and digested.
	The difficulties faced by Indonesia are extremely testing. The lessons we have learned in Srebrenica, Rwanda and elsewhere will be used to good effect, we hope, in ensuring that lessons do not have to be learned again in Indonesia.

House adjourned at twelve minutes before nine o'clock.